12 Hour BoB scenario

[puller]

We do not want it to overlap any other type of event....we want epic turnout like we had in Target for Today...

I just said October because it is around 4 months from now...plenty of time to recruit and spam boards and game with it's epicness...

[LCADolby]

Yes it would be awesome. 

However, I would like to petition the removal of the BF-110c,  it is way too fast and wasn't the correct slower variant that got owned in the real battle.   

What is the difference between the C3 and C4, my 110 knowledge is lacking.

[Easyscor]

We do not want it to overlap any other type of event....we want epic turnout like we had in Target for Today...

I just said October because it is around 4 months from now...plenty of time to recruit and spam boards and game with it's epicness...

I like the way you think.

[bustr]

What Bruv is observing about the 110c in our scenarios may be a combination of a fuel burn of "1" which gives the 110 very long range carrying a light fuel load. And it's ability with WEP in a dive, at least in our game, to run away from our Hurr1 and spit1. Then add on the concentrated gun package in the nose that can be used from 1000 out to cause pilot wounds.

I suspect Bruv could slaughter 110 all night long if they would just stick around for him to get at them.

[captain1ma]

well, theres a BOB Setup in the AVA this week that will last all week long. come on in and test it out!

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379981.0.html

[Zimme83]

The 110 can be left out w/o having the LW suffer. They will have the 109 against mostly Hurri 1 so they will not be in any disadvantageous position. The 110 had a minor role in BoB and suffered hard so it's not one of the central planes in the scenario.
But on the other hand: LW can be given a target in central England, like Coventry, outside of the effective range of the 109 and having only the 110:s as bomber escort.

If we want the scenario divided into 3 parts like the last one the first part can be about LW hitting strategic factories etc, 2nd part will be fighting the RAF and attacking the airfields in Southern England. 3rd part is the Blitz with raids on cities.

[save]

The spit II would be a welcome addition and also 109E with a bomb.

Yes it would be awesome. 

However, I would like to petition the removal of the BF-110c,  it is way too fast and wasn't the correct slower variant that got owned in the real battle.   

[bustr]

FSO has been the BoB. Last Friday the axis sent out a huge fighter swarm of 110 and 109 at 30k to swamp the target we were defending. Hurri and spit with only 303 just didn't do it. Especially with the 110 hoard and that stored up E bank from the alt. We had to survive getting them down near the ground to finally gain much of an advantage. AH 110 don't fly like I remember seeing films and listening to interviews of how they flew in the real BoB.

In FSO the axis commanders rarely send the fighters out as bomber escorts like they did in WW2. They send the fighters on ahead to wear us down and run us out of fuel and ammo before the bombers sneek onto their targets. Without cannons, the Hurri and spit in AH uses up a lot of 303 and fuel just to survive the fighters, let alone then try and bring down bombers.

Once the FSO matchups have both side using similar guns, the fight becomes much more even. Good thing Germany didn't send it's fighters in first to wear down the RAF. I bet more bombers would have gotten through in daylight.

[Krusty]

Yes it would be awesome. 

However, I would like to petition the removal of the BF-110c,  it is way too fast and wasn't the correct slower variant that got owned in the real battle.   

That's a comment ill-informed of the practical facts. If you look at AH's speed and climb chart you will find the 110C-4 we have matches the stats of a C-4. What are you expecting we have, some souped up version of it? Far from it.

You can pull the same BnZ moves in the Bf109E-4, and in fact that happens a lot. The only reason the 110C BnZs is because that's all it can do. The two reasons it does well compared to the 109E-4 and the Hurr/Spit is the fuel capacity lets it loiter longer, being more of a nuisance, and because it has more ammunition to keep fighting.

It has nothing to do with the "wrong" model of 110C being used.

Historically, it was doctrine that killed the 110C and bad ideas from on high. They were tied to close formation at lower alts with the bombers, and forced to dogfight in turn fight situations that got it slaughtered. It wasn't just because the plane sucked. It was a 1-trick pony against the spits and hurris, but its trick was having slightly more options to disengage. Not even a complete speed advantage, since a hurri could catch it and stay on it enough to kill it with no sweat and a spit had an even easier time killing them.

EDIT:

But on the other hand: LW can be given a target in central England, like Coventry, outside of the effective range of the 109 and having only the 110:s as bomber escort.

Interesting fact, the 109s had a lot more range than often cited. The 109s had to take off and loiter, often flying circles over parts of france and wait for their bombers to show. They started off having great success as "free roam" sweeps and fighter patrols ahead of the bombers, but certain higher-ups with their heads in the sand and no real grasp on reality or what was going on told the fighter wings in no uncertain terms they HAD to fly like this, at this time, in this way, and the end result was disastrous. The only reason 109s had 15 minutes of fuel over london was because of this waiting, rendezvousing with bombers, etc. Because they were forced to fly so close to the bombers they also flew zig-zags at faster speeds, thus burning more fuel.

The end result is that their reputation is best when taken in full context of how they were ordered to fly.

[Bruv119]

Historically, it was doctrine that killed the 110C and bad ideas from on high. They were tied to close formation at lower alts with the bombers, and forced to dogfight in turn fight situations that got it slaughtered. It wasn't just because the plane sucked. It was a 1-trick pony against the spits and hurris, but its trick was having slightly more options to disengage. Not even a complete speed advantage, since a hurri could catch it and stay on it enough to kill it with no sweat and a spit had an even easier time killing them.

Well that is what i always fail to see happen during an AH Scenario.  Right version or not we have 110s dictating a dogfight spits and hurris can only catch them with an SA fail.  JU88S, hurris have one pass and then they are through.   Then a handful of spits fighting 3 to one odds.  I have to salute the real few who put up with such crazy odds. At least they werent terrorised by 110s.

[Krusty]

If you want a more realistic BOB, it's not a problem of the limited-use 110Cs. Petition to drop the Ju88s entirely. We have a 1941 Soviet-front-era version with higher payloads and higher horsepower engines, better gun defenses, etc. Since we have the He111 now it's far more representative to put them in instead, and on top of that the Hurricanse gain a bit more of an edge in their attacks.

EDIT: For comparison:

[Oldman731]

If you want a more realistic BOB, it's not a problem of the limited-use 110Cs. Petition to drop the Ju88s entirely. We have a 1941 Soviet-front-era version with higher payloads and higher horsepower engines, better gun defenses, etc. Since we have the He111 now it's far more representative to put them in instead, and on top of that the Hurricanse gain a bit more of an edge in their attacks.

I am nervous because Krusty and I are agreeing so much here.  When HTC introduced the He 111, I hoped that people could get rid of the Ju88s in BoB setups.  The 111 is a much more representative German bomber.

- oldman

[Zimme83]

Ju-88 should be only a small portion of the German bomber force, if it's in the scenario at all. But im fine with only the 111.

[puller]

The BoB we are running in FSO only has HE111s and JU87s as bombers....

[Krusty]

Ju-88 should be only a small portion of the German bomber force, if it's in the scenario at all. But im fine with only the 111.

If we had the 88A-1, you could argue that. They were starting to replace the older bombers in the BOB, but the early models had shorter wingspans, much worse handling and roll rate (according to pilots and because of the floating ailerons design that was changed later), and couldn't fly as high or as fast or shoot back as well. No 81Z in the rear ventral, and only 1 MG17 in the upper rear cabin. they weren't the same plane at all. With that lesser-capable plane, you could argue that it has a minor place in the line up like the 110C does, but with the late 1941 version we have? No, it really shouldn't be in there at all, especially with the He111 we have now.

I tried to bring that up the last time BOB was run, with no consideration. I posted details outlining the difference between what the Germans had in the A-1 and what we have in the A-4, details, pics, lists of changes and how that impacts our BOB scenarios, the strain and stress that puts on the hurricane pilots trying to tail chase formations that are faster than them, etc.

Hopefully next time it will be different.