Whom would you let die?

[nrshida]

Some observations, since I’m presently designing in a domain very close to the one being discussed: autonomous vehicles are on the way whether you like it or not because of socio /economic / technological imperatives. This survey is more to throw some of the associated issues into the public domain because legality and morality will both have to be modified to accommodate this new thing.

Stop thinking of the car as an individual. In a peloton of autonomous vehicles your car won’t be. It will be making decisions as part of a network at a rate so fast the actions will be enacted before the occupants have any clue something is happening. Imagine a mini train formed of autonomous vehicles tailgating each other at 100 mph on the highway, all braking and manoeuvring simultaneously while all the occupants in all the cars are having beer or coffee and talking (or more likely, busy with their smartphones). It’s about as far from traditional road transport as you can imagine. Forget everything you’ve learned from that.

the only things that are really needed is hardware in the road ie, markers on the lanes, and intersection signals that can be read, the way tesla is doing it now is just the beginning.

This is actually the wrong war around. The earliest autonomous vehicles took this approach. Citroen had a functioning autonomous DS in the early 1960s which applied this philosophy but the cost of modifying the infrastructure is too high. The autonomous ‘thinking’ and sensing will mostly be onboard with of course some external digital knowledge of traffic conditions, sensor-pooling etc.

I have seen many, many problems caused because of the hubris of engineers who believe their designs are infallible

Interesting observation. Like to discuss your experiences sometime. Engineers ought not be doing the design work in some domains as they presently do. In the building industry for example the tasks are more formally delimited. Of course good engineering should also allow for failures in a failsafe condition, where possible. Accidents will happen regardless.

Regarding the discussion of who should cop it in an emerging accident: presently road accident-related casualties considerably outnumber those caused by wars and murders on a yearly basis. Given the ability / attention / interest in driving of an average human operator, even conceding the fact that humans can use intuition and interpolation AND there will be mixed autonomous / non-autonomous vehicles flowing together do you think the accident rate will go up or down?

[Chalenge]

The situations that are dreaming about are very limited in today's America. Sure, you may be able to design an autonomous vehicle for a small section of San Francisco, but only after all other traffic is eliminated. Engineers are still 100 years from an autonomous vehicle for every day life.

Sure, they think they can do it. It's the same arrogance you see out of every new graduate. They know it all!

You drive your light-weight electro-autocar. I'll be driving armor. That's how much I trust your junk.

[Bizman]

You'd still have to make a decision if you are driving yourself.

Exactly. The big question is what would you do if for example the brakes of your car suddenly failed. Would your choice be better than that of an automated vehicle (or any other robot, for that matter)? And how would you argument your choice?

Whose moral rules should we teach to a machine?

[nrshida]

You drive your light-weight electro-autocar. I'll be driving armor. That's how much I trust your junk.

So wait a minute, do you acually think you and your fellow road users (including pedestrians) are safer in and around a large, heavy, less deformable vehicle such as a Chevy Escalade for example?

Exactly. The big question is what would you do if for example the brakes of your car suddenly failed. Would your choice be better than that of an automated vehicle (or any other robot, for that matter)? And how would you argument your choice?

Whose moral rules should we teach to a machine?

Choosing which crowd of people to pile into is a very borderline and contrived case. It's not so much a moral but legal hold-up at the moment. Presently the buck stops with the driver who is both legally qualified and responsible for the safe operation of the vehicle. This includes setting the sunroof of your Tesla to precisely 72% open via the touchscreen interface while doing 70 on the motorway (because people do things like that). If the car is driving then it's Toyota, Ford, Cadillac what-have-you who are responsible for every accident. No car compay is going to willingly shoulder that because some of them have an awful lot of money and everyone knows it.

[zack1234]

Some observations, since I’m presently designing in a domain very close to the one being discussed: autonomous vehicles are on the way whether you like it or not because of socio /economic / technological imperatives. This survey is more to throw some of the associated issues into the public domain because legality and morality will both have to be modified to accommodate this new thing.

Stop thinking of the car as an individual. In a peloton of autonomous vehicles your car won’t be. It will be making decisions as part of a network at a rate so fast the actions will be enacted before the occupants have any clue something is happening. Imagine a mini train formed of autonomous vehicles tailgating each other at 100 mph on the highway, all braking and manoeuvring simultaneously while all the occupants in all the cars are having beer or coffee and talking (or more likely, busy with their smartphones). It’s about as far from traditional road transport as you can imagine. Forget everything you’ve learned from that.


This is actually the wrong war around. The earliest autonomous vehicles took this approach. Citroen had a functioning autonomous DS in the early 1960s which applied this philosophy but the cost of modifying the infrastructure is too high. The autonomous ‘thinking’ and sensing will mostly be onboard with of course some external digital knowledge of traffic conditions, sensor-pooling etc.


Interesting observation. Like to discuss your experiences sometime. Engineers ought not be doing the design work in some domains as they presently do. In the building industry for example the tasks are more formally delimited. Of course good engineering should also allow for failures in a failsafe condition, where possible. Accidents will happen regardless.

Regarding the discussion of who should cop it in an emerging accident: presently road accident-related casualties considerably outnumber those caused by wars and murders on a yearly basis. Given the ability / attention / interest in driving of an average human operator, even conceding the fact that humans can use intuition and interpolation AND there will be mixed autonomous / non-autonomous vehicles flowing together do you think the accident rate will go up or down?

When are you getting a job?

[Shuffler]

Good engineers are few and far between.

[Tumor]

People in the car should be put at risk, never any pedestrian, for any reason.  Everyone involved is on the road that is there for them to use.  Only those in the car chose to be there.

[ROC]

autonomous vehicles are on the way whether you like it or not because of socio /economic / technological imperatives.

Didn't read a word past this.  BS.  Imperative?  What on earth is so imperative that taking the individual out of the equation warrants a mandate like this? What a load of absolute marketing drivel.
Autonomous vehicles are little more than another attempt at dumbing down the population to make the masses even more easier to manage than they are now.
Like it or not?  You don't know nearly as much about people as you think

[Lusche]

What a load of absolute marketing drivel. Autonomous vehicles are little more than another attempt at dumbing down the population to make the masses even more easier to manage than they are now.

LOL

[nrshida]

What on earth is so imperative that taking the individual out of the equation warrants a mandate like this?

There's no mandate, how do you conclude innovation emerges from governmental bodies? They don't have the skillset, training, motivation or personality type to do that. The imperative is simply business in combination with increased safety, efficiency and convenience. Win win combination, especially the money part 

Do you actually know what the present conception of an autonomous car is and what they are proposing? Some of you seem to be infering they are roving, effeminate, socialist prisons on wheels which the government will force you to buy with your own money and at the push of a button drive you to your local intermnent camp   

Autonomous vehicles are little more than another attempt at dumbing down the population to make the masses even more easier to manage than they are now.

How in the name of Satan's flaming trousers do you come to this conclusion? And where can I get a tinfoil hat from?

Like it or not?  You don't know nearly as much about people as you think

I didn't claim to know people at all in what I posted, I was discussing what's happening in industry.


Getting beyond weird at this point and well into self-contradicting internal cultural values which are ironically the consequence of careful conditioning by industry and commerce as part of an ongoing cycle. Decades long.

Best of luck resolving that 

[zack1234]

All these threads are why Funmentalusts everywhere hate western culture

[nrshida]

Zack drives a green Toyota Prius with a 'Russell Brand for World President' bumper sticker on it.

[GScholz]

People in the car should be put at risk, never any pedestrian, for any reason.  Everyone involved is on the road that is there for them to use.  Only those in the car chose to be there.

Well... The pedestrian could be on the road. I imagine most killed or injured pedestrians are...

[HL117]

So you could play AHVI in the back of your autonomous van on the way to and from work, or more likely just take a nap. When can we get one? 

[Easyscor]

Commercial vehicles were the first to adapt ABS brakes. I'd predict a repeat of that pattern.
If fleet owners calculate it will save them time and money they will transition quickly.  Their drivers will be government mandated to remain but relegated to the position of a railroad train engineer. You can't put that many people out of work and the other drivers on the roads won't feel safe with 80,000 lb+ driverless vehicles hurtling down the road at them.

As for your pedestrian, I can't imagine getting behind the wheel again if I killed a kid and at my age almost everyone playing pokywhatever qualifies as a kid now.