Author Topic: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!  (Read 2443 times)

Offline Eurastus

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TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« on: September 10, 2015, 08:19:08 PM »
Yep, "turn the boat" --- three words I hate to hear, because you are about to lose your cruiser or CV and get to start over at your port.

It's a game, and games imitate reality only to an extent.  In the real world of surface naval tactics carrier groups are spread over many miles with the well-protected carrier placed dead center inside a destroyer and air cover screen.  An attacker might make it to a carrier --- might.  In the Aces High game all boats are clumped together a stones throw apart and for whatever reasons the defending carrier aircraft do a poor job of defending the big boat; the general one being that attacking bombers arrive at far too high an altitude to be intercepted - friendly aircraft leaving the carrier nearly always stay at low altitudes to dogfight and attack nearby towns/bases.

In the game your only reliable defense aboard a carrier group is behind an anti-aircraft gun, and it is this defense that is gutted by turning the boat at the first sight of "CV Killers" --- a term that has been coined because of their regular successes.  A heavy ship on a beam reach --- meaning a straight and level run broadsides to the enemy exists in a two-dimensional world of gunnery; exactly like land-based anti-aircraft guns and have the same chance of successful defense.  But, once the boat begins turning, that world shifts into a 3D box where gunners try to target a moving target from a moving target that is moving in two directions.  Imagine defending a land base from atop a giant merry-go round; it's the exact same thing

One night I was trying to explain this to another player who answered that since air-to-air combat involved the same principles, we should let naval anti-aircraft gunnery follow the same rules.  I'll leave that one to your own judgment.

The other thing is that turning the boat is by no means an effect response against bombs.  Bombs fall at 32 feet per-second/per-second according to gravity physics and the boat is simply too slow to move out of the way.  Turning the boat could work if the enemy bombers were high enough, if a ship-based observer could report the moment the bombs were released, and if the Captain went full-rudder at that moment, but I have never once seen this kind of coordination.  The enemy bomber on the other hand who is looking to release his load can see the ship turn and only needs to simply bump the pedal to follow the arc.  Those of us who've been regularly blown out of the water while turning knows all about this. 

There is no perfect solution in the game that will keep your CV from being destroyed, but screaming "Turn the boat" at the first sight of enemy aircraft only lessens the chances of survival in the game.  A better solution is to keep an even keel and let the gunners do their job with proper lead without having to factor a turn into their aim.  I'd hoped we'd seen enough of the results of "turning the boat" to try something different.  Let's hold the boat on it's straight course for a while and see what happens.  I'm betting we'll turn out the winner more often than we've been doing.

The second thing that makes me post this is the crazy things we do in CV-to-CV battles.  There is one rule dating back to the days of sail and black powder cannons and it's called "crossing the T."  When fighting another surface force, you stay broadsides to the enemy while running a straight line as much as you can.  Being broadsides is the only way you can fire 100% of your guns at the enemy.  If you present the bow or the stern to the enemy you not only lose 50% of your firepower since your guns are hidden on the other side of the boat, but the enemy is also apt to need only a range calculation to hit you because the usual windage (lead) is removed or reduced.  Ditto for attacks from the shore batteries; I don't know how many players I've seen who try to outrun an 8" shell in a 26-knot boat with fewer guns to return fire.  Further, like the enemy ship gunner, his shore battery counterpart also gains the advantage of an absent or reduced lead factor to place on his aim.

Another story about the ship's attitude is the player who defending presenting the CV's arse to the enemy with the logic that "it makes for a smaller target."   Again, I'll leave that one to your own judgment.

I just had to write this.  I just finished destroying two sets of bombers from a CV 5" --- for one reason....I didn't call them out and no one else saw them. Had either occurred, someone would have screamed "turn the boat," and if you mess with the CV's you know the end of that story.

For what it's worth, there are three things I hope folks would remember.  One, AAA is your only defense in this game; don't sabotage what you have by turning the boat and lousing up your defensive gunnery while causing almost no inconvenience for the enemy pilot.  Second, keep broadsides in CV-to-CV battles to better your aim AND have use of ALL your guns --- let it be the other guys riding the merry-go round while you are blowing him out of the water.  Cross that T and keep it crossed.  Third and last, if you just have to take command of the CV's in the game, please make sure you have at least a novice's education in surface naval tactics.  If I had to name a single cause of defeats in the CV part of the game, it would be that every mother's son with a online subscription can turn the wheel.

Offline Vudu15

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2015, 01:59:36 AM »
35 minutes of turning the boat, 75% of the time you have no gunners or gunners so poor you'd almost never drop the bombers before they've loosed bombs. The boat makes extremely hard turns and when preformed properly they are THE most effective way to dodge bombs from high alt level bombers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siVDwDy3A_Y
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 08:29:56 AM »
Yep, "turn the boat" --- three words I hate to hear, because you are about to lose your cruiser or CV and get to start over at your port.

It's a game, and games imitate reality only to an extent.  In the real world of surface naval tactics carrier groups are spread over many miles with the well-protected carrier placed dead center inside a destroyer and air cover screen.  An attacker might make it to a carrier --- might.  In the Aces High game all boats are clumped together a stones throw apart and for whatever reasons the defending carrier aircraft do a poor job of defending the big boat; the general one being that attacking bombers arrive at far too high an altitude to be intercepted - friendly aircraft leaving the carrier nearly always stay at low altitudes to dogfight and attack nearby towns/bases.

In the game your only reliable defense aboard a carrier group is behind an anti-aircraft gun, and it is this defense that is gutted by turning the boat at the first sight of "CV Killers" --- a term that has been coined because of their regular successes.  A heavy ship on a beam reach --- meaning a straight and level run broadsides to the enemy exists in a two-dimensional world of gunnery; exactly like land-based anti-aircraft guns and have the same chance of successful defense.  But, once the boat begins turning, that world shifts into a 3D box where gunners try to target a moving target from a moving target that is moving in two directions.  Imagine defending a land base from atop a giant merry-go round; it's the exact same thing

One night I was trying to explain this to another player who answered that since air-to-air combat involved the same principles, we should let naval anti-aircraft gunnery follow the same rules.  I'll leave that one to your own judgment.

The other thing is that turning the boat is by no means an effect response against bombs.  Bombs fall at 32 feet per-second/per-second according to gravity physics and the boat is simply too slow to move out of the way.  Turning the boat could work if the enemy bombers were high enough, if a ship-based observer could report the moment the bombs were released, and if the Captain went full-rudder at that moment, but I have never once seen this kind of coordination.  The enemy bomber on the other hand who is looking to release his load can see the ship turn and only needs to simply bump the pedal to follow the arc.  Those of us who've been regularly blown out of the water while turning knows all about this. 

There is no perfect solution in the game that will keep your CV from being destroyed, but screaming "Turn the boat" at the first sight of enemy aircraft only lessens the chances of survival in the game.  A better solution is to keep an even keel and let the gunners do their job with proper lead without having to factor a turn into their aim.  I'd hoped we'd seen enough of the results of "turning the boat" to try something different.  Let's hold the boat on it's straight course for a while and see what happens.  I'm betting we'll turn out the winner more often than we've been doing.

The second thing that makes me post this is the crazy things we do in CV-to-CV battles.  There is one rule dating back to the days of sail and black powder cannons and it's called "crossing the T."  When fighting another surface force, you stay broadsides to the enemy while running a straight line as much as you can.  Being broadsides is the only way you can fire 100% of your guns at the enemy.  If you present the bow or the stern to the enemy you not only lose 50% of your firepower since your guns are hidden on the other side of the boat, but the enemy is also apt to need only a range calculation to hit you because the usual windage (lead) is removed or reduced.  Ditto for attacks from the shore batteries; I don't know how many players I've seen who try to outrun an 8" shell in a 26-knot boat with fewer guns to return fire.  Further, like the enemy ship gunner, his shore battery counterpart also gains the advantage of an absent or reduced lead factor to place on his aim.

Another story about the ship's attitude is the player who defending presenting the CV's arse to the enemy with the logic that "it makes for a smaller target."   Again, I'll leave that one to your own judgment.

I just had to write this.  I just finished destroying two sets of bombers from a CV 5" --- for one reason....I didn't call them out and no one else saw them. Had either occurred, someone would have screamed "turn the boat," and if you mess with the CV's you know the end of that story.

For what it's worth, there are three things I hope folks would remember.  One, AAA is your only defense in this game; don't sabotage what you have by turning the boat and lousing up your defensive gunnery while causing almost no inconvenience for the enemy pilot.  Second, keep broadsides in CV-to-CV battles to better your aim AND have use of ALL your guns --- let it be the other guys riding the merry-go round while you are blowing him out of the water.  Cross that T and keep it crossed.  Third and last, if you just have to take command of the CV's in the game, please make sure you have at least a novice's education in surface naval tactics.  If I had to name a single cause of defeats in the CV part of the game, it would be that every mother's son with a online subscription can turn the wheel.

I pretty much have to disagree.

You can take over some ones spot to take command of the boat if you have a better rank.

I do think more people need to learn how to direct the boat.

But turning the boat is pretty much the only way you can stop the attack from high alt bombers.

Ack is weak that high and is very difficult to aim. It won't stop B24s at 20k. Though it might hurt them.

Turning the CV when they are about 10-15 seconds from dropping the bombs is the way to do it. It makes it very difficult to recalibrate and turn the planes fast enough in the bombardier's seat. I've seen many bombers miss by close margins because we were able to turn the boat just before he pressed the trigger. It makes it much more difficult to get a good bearing for the bombers. Even if a few bombs hit, not all of them will. Then if he misses, up a F4U4 or a CHOG and chase them down.

Personally, I don't try to kill CVs because I'm in it for the furball and the fight. But a lot of people take great effort to ruin that. IMO, its a very good idea to turn the boat against high altitude bombers. There is no other way to stop the attack unless you have high fighter cover.

Plus like vudu said before. You have no idea if anyone is in those guns and sometimes it's better to turn the boat than count on the risk that there are enough gunners in the positions and they actually know how to shoot the things.




« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 08:38:16 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline Scca

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2015, 09:44:31 AM »
I too disagree with your assessment regarding a turning boat. 

If you turn too early, the bomber can compensate, but turning at the right time will make them miss every time.  The key is to develop that sense of when to turn. 

Now, against dive bombers, turning the boat is useless.  That's what the 5" is for.  Same for low bombers.  Blow them out of the sky with the 5".  I protected a boat solo for over an hour against all manor of low and high bombers and some JABO's and never left the 5".  I had so many kills on the same guy I was worried someone would think I was shade hunting. 
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Offline USCH

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2015, 09:48:35 AM »
Rank is your friend..

Offline Bruv119

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2015, 02:26:01 AM »
you've already failed by not killing/anticipating those Bombers in a fighter aircraft.   Or porked his ords before you decide to use that Carrier to give yourself more time and space to see the next field he decided to roll from. 
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Offline Naughty

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 09:23:12 PM »
I'd like to know how I can never even get close to a CV in a fighter, while dodging and weaving and diving at 500+MPH, but a set of low to medium alt bombers makes it all the way to the boat and flies right through the ack in a straight line, without getting hit ! happens more and more.   :headscratch:
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Offline pembquist

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 10:09:24 PM »
I'd like to know how I can never even get close to a CV in a fighter, while dodging and weaving and diving at 500+MPH, but a set of low to medium alt bombers makes it all the way to the boat and flies right through the ack in a straight line, without getting hit ! happens more and more.   :headscratch:

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Offline Lusche

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015, 05:58:06 AM »
but a set of low to medium alt bombers makes it all the way to the boat and flies right through the ack in a straight line, without getting hit

There are two factors coming into play:
First, the drones are indeed impervious to auto puffy ack (as long as they are drones). There's a bug in the code causing it. I expect it to be corrected with the next version
Second, the lead actually is being hit quite a lot - but most buffs can cope with a lot more damage before something is critically hit than a fighter.
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Offline Eurastus

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2016, 11:36:41 PM »
35 minutes of turning the boat, 75% of the time you have no gunners or gunners so poor you'd almost never drop the bombers before they've loosed bombs. The boat makes extremely hard turns and when preformed properly they are THE most effective way to dodge bombs from high alt level bombers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siVDwDy3A_Y

Yep, when "performed properly."  I mentioned that.  But we turn at random, regardless of where the bombers are at in the bomb run.

Offline Eurastus

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2016, 11:52:44 PM »
Thanks for the comments.  But, the problem is that we DON'T turn the CV properly with consideration given to the attacking bomber's position in its bomb run and bomb release.  As soon as bombers are sighted the hue and cry is raised to "turn the boat!!!"  The bombers may be 9k out, or almost overhead.   As soon as bombers are spotted at any altitude or distance the cry goes out.  If you don't ride CV's much, do it a couple of times and watch the circus.  There are two curative options; doing it the proper way which required an impossible level of training and coordination, or the second best option; retain your ability to shoot straight.  Someone mentioned that the ack is ineffective on bomber-sized targets.  I assure you that 5", proximity-fused shells are highly effective on those targets, with one shell often bringing down two targets (I was very surprised to read that comment).

The bottom line is that we are getting blown out of the water more often than not on any given bomber attack.  What's the harm in at least trying to shoot straight?

Offline BowHTR

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2016, 05:48:35 AM »
Your replying to a post that is a year old....
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Offline Rebel28

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Re: TURN THE BOAT!!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2016, 11:16:33 AM »
It might be a year old but some valid points.

Here is another 8 inch guns ranged on town with hits from every shot.

Ship is not under attack.

Some John Paul Jones on the other side of the world that decides oh my lets turn the boats for fun.

It would have been nice if they had asked anyone gunning those ships.

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