The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...

[BOBO]

I thought it was nicknamed The Ground Nail

[GScholz]

It had many nicknames. Some good, some bad. Mostly bad in Germany.

The West-Germans bought 916 F-104Gs. They lost 292 aircraft and 116 pilots in accidents... His vocal opposition to the 104 also cost "Bubi" Hartmann his job in the Luftwaffe. German music band "Welle Erdball" even made a song about a pilot trapped in a 104 going down.

Nothing like German electronic music to bring back the horrors of the Cold War...

[Ripsnort]

The 104 catapulted Kelly Johnson's career and shot down Eric Hartmann's career.
Excuse the puns. 

[GScholz]

The most advanced version was the Italian 104S ASA-M. It was in service until 2004! With modern radar, radar guided missiles, 9 external hardpoints, uprated engine and strengthened structure, it was a competent interceptor even in the new millennium.

[MiloMorai]

The Germans used it in a role it was not designed for > ground attack.

 The West German Luftwaffe received a total of 915 Starfighters (30 F-104Fs, 96 F-104Gs, and 136 TF-104Gs from Lockheed, 255 F/RF-104Gs from the North Group, 210 F-104Gs from the South Group, 88 F-104Gs from the West Group, 50 F/RF-104Gs from the Italian Group, plus 50 replacement F-104Gs from MBB to replace some of those lost in crashes).

During its period of service with the German armed forces, about 270 German Starfighters were lost in accidents, just under 30 percent of the total force. About 110 pilots were killed. However, the attrition rate in German service was not all that much greater than that of the F-104 in service with several other air forces, including the United States Air Force. Canada had the unenviable record of losing over 50 percent of its 200 single-seat CF-104s in flying accidents. The loss rate of Luftwaffe Starfighters was not all that extraordinary, since the Luftwaffe had suffered a 36 percent attrition rate with the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak, the Starfighter's immediate predecessor. There was nothing intrinsically dangerous about the Starfighter, since the Royal Norwegian Air Force operating identical F-104Gs suffered only six losses in 56,000 flying hours, and the Spanish Air Force lost not a single one of its Starfighters to accidents.

[GScholz]

Video from the F-16 chase plane:

https://www.nrk.no/nordland/filmet-den-unike-starfighter-flygningen-fra-f16-fly-1.13156073

Hope to see this bird flying more.

[GScholz]

There was nothing intrinsically dangerous about the Starfighter...

The Germans did suffer from a lot of technical issues with their 104Gs. It really wasn't suited for central-north European climate and there were a lot of engine failures, asymmetric flap deployment, cockpit pressurization and oxygen system failures. The list goes on...

http://www.916-starfighter.de/GAF_crashes.htm


My father once told me of this German 104 that entered our airspace. Flying on autopilot, pilot unconscious or dead due to oxygen system failure. Our 104 pilots tried in vain to establish contact with the German pilot, and after a while he ran out of fuel and crashed.

That accident is on that list: 06.12.1965 DA+254    7105    F-104G    JaboG 31    pilot got incapacitated and died due to oxygen problems, aircraft flew on Autopilot and crashed near Narwik, Norway.

Our pilots were ordered to shoot him down if he got too close to Narvik.

[GScholz]

Trivia: In the music video "Welle Erdball" is singing about Oberleutnant zur See Joachim von Hassel who crashed and died in 1970. He was the son of politician Kai-Uwe von Hassel,  president of the Bundestag.

10.03.1970    21+28    6689    RF-104G    MFG 2    spatial disorientation during GCA into Eggebek AB, pilot was killed

[GScholz]

Last year RTL made a TV movie about the German experience with the F-104.



Looks pretty good. Will have to look for it.

[Brooke]

Last year RTL made a TV movie about the German experience with the F-104.



Looks pretty good. Will have to look for it.

Cool!  I wonder if it will have a subtitled version anywhere.

[DaveBB]

The F-104 was designed to combat Migs.  The design basis came from the experience in the Korean War.  I don't think they went the right direction with this aircraft.  The only thing that really made this aircraft competent was pilot training.  But pilot training is 90% of the battle.

[pipz]

Very cool. 

[Gman]

Great vids in this thread - the Italian model Gscholz posted, a friend of mine that runs the website "The Aviationist" is x Italian air force and has written a great book about Italian F104s, and has a lot of great articles on his site too.  Book here - https://theaviationist.com/2010/03/10/italian-starfighters-eng/

A favorite of mine as well, the CF104 was a fighter the RCAF flew here for a long time for better and worse.  Norway, Denmark, and Turkey all flew Canadair 104s in their fleets as well.  The first model I built which I did a decent job on was a Tiger Meet CF104, and it's still my favorite.

It had the rep of the "widowmaker" in the Canadian media too - 110 major class accidents in the 25 years the RCAF flew it, but it did do the job during the cold war, with a lot of Canadian squadrons forward deployed in Germany/etc.  Considering that the predecessor F86 in only 12 years of flying had over 250 major class accidents for the loss of 3x more pilots than the F104, the title IMO while sort of fair considering 1/2 the airplanes built were lost, wasn't completely accurate considering past fighter losses, and that 1/3 of the pilots killed in the F104 when compared to the 100+ in the F86.

Fantastic plane to see at airshows, for sure.   The CF5 is the only other fighter Canada has built and flown in great numbers during the cold war.  It was a great low level attack performer, taken from Wiki, but I've read this quote many places before -

The 104 was very difficult to attack owing to its small size, speed, and low altitude capability. Dave Jurkowski, former CF-104 and CF-18 pilot is quoted "Because of our speed, size and lower level operations, no Canadian Zipper driver was ever 'shot down' by either air or ground threats in the three Red Flag Exercises in which we participated."

- and, it was a rocket on the deck, again, the air shows it would put on largely consisted of very, very high speed passes, which were always a good time.

[GScholz]

Cool!  I wonder if it will have a subtitled version anywhere.

So far I've only been able to find a French TV version, dubbed in French of course. I'm not watching that one.

[GScholz]

The F-104 was designed to combat Migs.  The design basis came from the experience in the Korean War.  I don't think they went the right direction with this aircraft.  The only thing that really made this aircraft competent was pilot training.  But pilot training is 90% of the battle.

With its awesome climb rate and acceleration it did well as a strategic interceptor, which was its main role in the USAF. However it lost badly to MiG-21s in the Indo-Pakistani war of 1971. Indian MiG-21s shot down four Pakistani F-104s in two separate engagements for zero losses of their own. With only rear aspect heat seekers and cannon for armament maneuverability is important.