Author Topic: US weapons procurement  (Read 4250 times)

Offline Serenity

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2016, 05:39:50 AM »
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 06:06:37 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline icepac

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2016, 06:32:47 PM »
So I got rule 14'd because I wrote that my grandfather authored the original weapons procurement policy?

I think it's time to leave this place.

Offline Gman

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2016, 06:55:40 AM »
The Navy released a few statements regarding the DDG1000 guns/ammo in the last week, as others said here, the Navy is blaming the number of ships cut being responsible for the huge increase in cost/round, and is seeking alternative rounds to replace the long range boosted/guided ones, possibly using some sort of hypersonic technology. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 07:13:03 AM by Gman »

Offline Serenity

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2016, 11:30:03 AM »
So I got rule 14'd because I wrote that my grandfather authored the original weapons procurement policy?

I think it's time to leave this place.

Yeah... I got deleted for commenting that it was cool you had that in your family history... not sure what the ^#$& happened there...

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2016, 01:34:48 PM »
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This seems counter-intuitive, Rich. I'm wondering what your source is for this statement. An important point behind stealth is to achieve both operational as well as tactical surprise (first shot, first kill), in addition to improving survive-ability once detected. It is pointless to take a stealthy platform and insist that it be placed at the center of a non-stealthy task force.
  It wont be at the center. It was designed as a shore attack platform and is pretty one dimensional. Nothing that expensive "acts alone". Remember a USN CVBG controls every inch of space, from seas bottom to atmo top, for a 600 nm circle around the CV.
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The huge antenna arrays required by AEGIS are blazing bright bulls-eyes to an enemy sea-search radar, not to mention that, when powered up, they paint a giant arrow back to the ship (I'm right here! Shoot me!).
Might could be and like I said the Zum will be able to "see" everything the AEGIS ships are seeing cause of being on the network. There is just no good reason or need to put AEGIS on it.
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It's like having a bright flashlight in a dark warehouse, where you're searching for an armed opponent; sure, you can see 20 or 30 feet around you, but that opponent can see you a quarter mile away. So, since the Zum class is a much harder ship to target from long range, and the ship's purpose is not to act as an air defense platform for a fleet, there was no compelling reason to include it, and every reason to leave it off.
Actually I was agreeing with you.

BTW every ship launched will have some aspect of LO included in its design in the future. The Burkes do, even the new CVs do.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2016, 02:31:47 PM »
Not impugning you integrity in any way, Rich. I just hadn't read anywhere that the Zumwalt was not intended or expected to operate independently. I was just hoping for a source so I could read it. However, that being said, nuclear subs come pretty close to being nearly as expensive as the DD-1000's, and they are indeed expected to operate independently for much of the time. Indeed, in this era of a much diminished US Navy (numbers wise, at least), our surface combatants often operate independently. And to come under the protective umbrella of other, air-defense and ASW capable ships like the Aegis cruisers and destroyers requires them to be very near to, or surrounded by, those assets. Add to that the still somewhat limited range of it's uber-gun still places them in littoral waters if attacking land-based targets with it, where no CVBG has any business being. The low-observable aspects being incorporated into other, more conventional vessels are not meant to hide their presence or general location, but rather to shrink the enemy's engagement envelope, giving our ships first-shot/first-kill. The DD-1000's stealth features are orders of magnitude more effective, and I can only assume are meant to help it avoid detection when beyond line-of-sight and operating independently.

Still, I could be completely off base. Also, it's intended operational environs today may be far different than what was envisioned when the program was first launched...happens all to often. :salute
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2016, 07:02:52 PM »
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Still, I could be completely off base. Also, it's intended operational environs today may be far different than what was envisioned when the program was first launched...happens all to often.

Indeed. The program was first launched, I believe, in 1989 and 27 years is a long, long time to design and launch a new surface combatant. And Im just guessing here but I cant imagine vs any enemy with decent tech one of these operating alone in the Littorals. They may be stealthy but they are not invisible and since they wont have the super accurate 155mm shells they were supposed to why would you risk a 3 b ships so close to shore when you can stand off and launch missiles?

And while they may operate independently now Sabre that doesnt mean they would in time of war. Most of all in the Pacific. If theres been a change in the CVBG doctrine then Im unaware of it. The only lone hunters should be submarines.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2016, 01:26:02 PM »
Good points, all, Rich. And good discussion. It's refreshing to be able to one without it degenerating into a brawl :salute. Would be incredibly interesting to read the original spec and CONOPS documents, and compare them with what it is today. I will note, at least from what I've been able to find on the web, that DD-1000's AGS gun system never HAD a requirement to attach sea-going targets. This leaves only it's VSL tubes (far fewer than other, smaller, cheaper ships), with harpoons, to deal with sea-going threats. According to https://news.usni.org/2016/05/23/zumwalt_mix_challgnges, "The ship was conceived to support Marines ashore from the littorals with twin 155mm guns firing guided rocket-assisted Long Range Land Attack Projectiles (LRLAP) more than 60 miles." A decently balanced article, if you get the chance to read it. Any way you slice it though, this acquisition is FUBAR.
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Offline FBKampfer

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2016, 01:57:15 PM »
I'm wondering if you couldn't just mount the AGS onto some other vessels, and make it something of a modular system, even if you wouldn't have the loading mechanism or ammunition reserves of a designated mount.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2016, 04:29:27 PM »
I'm wondering if you couldn't just mount the AGS onto some other vessels, and make it something of a modular system, even if you wouldn't have the loading mechanism or ammunition reserves of a designated mount.

From what I've read, the ship designers had to design the ship around the ammo-handling and storage to a certain degree. So, while it is possible to mount it to a brand new class (designed from the beginning to incorporate it), retrofitting it to an existing class would be problematic and prohibitively expensive, I should think.
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Offline Gman

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2016, 05:29:45 PM »
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 05:42:31 PM by Gman »

Offline BuckShot

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2016, 10:45:11 AM »
For those who don't know, The Zumwalt's captain is Captain James Kirk... Going where no man has gone before (in that class of ship)
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2016, 01:13:04 PM »
Good points, all, Rich. And good discussion. It's refreshing to be able to one without it degenerating into a brawl :salute. Would be incredibly interesting to read the original spec and CONOPS documents, and compare them with what it is today. I will note, at least from what I've been able to find on the web, that DD-1000's AGS gun system never HAD a requirement to attach sea-going targets. This leaves only it's VSL tubes (far fewer than other, smaller, cheaper ships), with harpoons, to deal with sea-going threats. According to https://news.usni.org/2016/05/23/zumwalt_mix_challgnges, "The ship was conceived to support Marines ashore from the littorals with twin 155mm guns firing guided rocket-assisted Long Range Land Attack Projectiles (LRLAP) more than 60 miles." A decently balanced article, if you get the chance to read it. Any way you slice it though, this acquisition is FUBAR.

Yeah you have made many valid points. I think the threat situation has changed so dramatically during the design of both Seawolf and Zumwalts that we ended up with platforms looking for a mission instead of missions requiring the platforms. That and while everyone talks about how saving pork jobs is so part of the deal and even bigger part is retaining the technological and Industrial expertise to build world class big ticket items. Most of all since we dont sell the actual platforms to others and only sell/co-produce individual systems. In other words we have to keep the workers who know how to build these things.

Now they are talking about upgrading our Triad and our special weapons. Well so much of the talent we had in nuclear development is gone, either retired or dead, cause we havn't built new systems in decades. Its hard to believe but the Cold War, the one I thought would never end, ended almost three decades ago. There has been just so much change in the military situation during my life. As a troop I wore Vietnam era fatigues and watched F4 Phantoms take off. Now? Were into 4'th gen stealth and drones will be flying their own attack missions with no-one in the Loop. The tech is ready now.

I dont know how anyone can project the Military threat/balance in 20 to 30 years to start new programs now. I think it was impossible to completely stop Zumm procurement at least for retaining the skilled workers. I dont think theres much doubt the future for surface combatants IS stealth/LO , massive electric out put , reduced manpower requirements, multi-mission capability, extremely smart weapons and probably hypersonic/Laser.

Making a 610' DD with the radar return of a 40' Marlin trolling boat is itself pretty remarkable. This kinda tech IS the future even if the Zumwalt itself isnt.
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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2016, 01:46:15 PM »
Making a 610' DD with the radar return of a 40' Marlin trolling boat is itself pretty remarkable. This kinda tech IS the future even if the Zumwalt itself isnt.
I think part of the challenges the industry and governments have is that the advances in technology are drastically changing the type of military assets we need to complete their tasks.

The Zumwalt is a engineering marvel - but what war is it fighting? What military tasks can it successfully execute against? What type of new technologies will it face in 5 or 10 years from now that could make it, as a weapons platform, obsolete? What role will autonomous AI weapons systems play in wars of the future? 

And we wonder why the F-35 cost billions more? Because the military developers keep on getting slammed with technology innovations and new requirements and run into integration limits.  I suspect that someone is going to change the game when it comes to military aircraft and their roles and in 10-15 years, the combat soldier, pilot, or seamen, may not actually 'sit' in their vessel anymore.  And it may not even be a human.
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Offline FBKampfer

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Re: US weapons procurement
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2016, 05:24:48 PM »
Frankly, I think a big part of the problem is that Americans have grown insanely casualty averse. So we try and pack a bunch of tech into our systems so that we're less likely to lose them and their operators/crew, which makes them crazy expensive, and so now the weapon system itself presents a significant loss, so we put even more on it so we're even less likely to lose it, which makes it more expensive still. And it keeps going.

In my admittedly inexperienced opinion, we need to have a more utilitarian inventory of systems. That's not to say inexpensive necessarily, but more utilitarian. Say the marines and landing parties need more fire support. Give them a light mortar carrier. Put rockets/missiles  or a 105 on the LCAC. Or put a maverick or harpoon launcher on the soc-r, or whatever is carrying your strike team. Have the sub that transported provide tomahawk fire. There are plenty of answers,  but a purpose built destroyer should never have been on that list.

Any solution to a problem or threat should be timely first and foremost, and effective as a very close second,  and affordable third. Everything else doesn't matter.


If loss of equipment is a major concern, it's a good argument that the mission hasn't been planned very well. If everything possible has been done and loss of equipment is still a major concern, maybe it's time for a new approach all together.
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