Author Topic: RAID  (Read 1101 times)

Offline Chalenge

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RAID
« on: December 05, 2016, 03:44:39 AM »
I have been using a RAID0 setup for video editing. This really helps with write speeds when recording, but from memory I tested AH2 for RAID maybe seven years ago? and don't remember what I learned. That's old age I guess. Is there any advantage to any type of RAID? My intuition is that it would cause the same thing we just fought so hard to get rid of, i.e. petite freeze.

Any idea if there is an advantage to RAID with AH3?
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: RAID
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2016, 06:25:25 AM »
I cannot see where any type of RAID configuration would help the game.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: RAID
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2016, 06:41:36 AM »
So, probably only negative results then?
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Offline Krusty

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Re: RAID
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2016, 08:40:41 AM »
A RAID configuration allows for several possibilities depending on which configuration you choose: Redundancy against drive failure, faster read speeds, faster write speeds, or sometimes combinations of results but this requires many more drives to be part of the RAID array.

The practical end result is your I/O speeds improve. That won't specifically help AH much. It will just improve your general responsiveness across your entire system.

It's a hard question to answer because the game specifically doesn't care if you're RAID or not. It loads the files (through whatever configuration) and then plays with the files in RAM.

If you're worried about read/write speeds, though, I would perhaps invest in a good reliable well-rated SSD drive instead. These essentially make RAID not as important in the modern day and age.

Offline MADe

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Re: RAID
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2016, 11:30:56 AM »
So, probably only negative results then?

I have been using raid 0 arrays with ssd's for years. 0 issues and great performance. if you have a quality cpu, they just go hand in hand better.

raid was developed for spin drives in a server deployment to increase server throughput.
raid 0, increases speed write/read times by inputting to multiple drive ports at once. each drives speeds are progressively added for an overall. use 4 drives with 200 r/w speed then system is 800 r/w speed, over simplification. 4 x2 = 800
raid 1, redundancy second drive mirrors primary drive for data safety
raid 5, uses 3 drives, of the 3, 1 is common and??????????????????????????????
raid 10, uses 4 drives in pairs, pair 1 is 2 dives in raid0 config with the 2nd pair in same config but they mirror the primary drive.

means nada to ah, micro stuttering, never saw it.

in todays hardware world no need. my m.2 ssd is 4x faster than 4 raid 0 arrayed discs. next year intel will be selling a new ssd format, suppose to be faster still......quanta x.....

I b interested to know what hardware config the ah servers currently use.......................
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 11:33:12 AM by MADe »
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: RAID
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2016, 11:58:41 AM »
The servers all have server-grade SATA or SCSI hard drives.  Nothing fancy as hard drive activity is minimal on the servers.  It is the network and CPU activity we concern ourselves with.
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Offline MADe

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Re: RAID
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2016, 02:38:47 PM »
The servers all have server-grade SATA or SCSI hard drives.  Nothing fancy as hard drive activity is minimal on the servers.  It is the network and CPU activity we concern ourselves with.
ty
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Offline BoilerDown

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Re: RAID
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2016, 06:22:47 PM »
Back in the day when SSDs first came out, Skuzzy expressed concern about running the game on those drives.  I don't think those concerns have any validity any more (if they ever did), if that's what's holding you back.  Get an SSD for Aces High and don't worry about it further.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: RAID
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2016, 10:23:47 PM »
I already have AH3 on a 2TB HDD with nothing else on it. I thought I remembered something about sector sizes being too small or large which might cause sync issues (or some other form of issue) if the game were installed to a RAID array. When I searched for that I didn't find it, so asked here instead.
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Offline MADe

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Re: RAID
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2016, 11:59:15 PM »
I already have AH3 on a 2TB HDD with nothing else on it. I thought I remembered something about sector sizes being too small or large which might cause sync issues (or some other form of issue) if the game were installed to a RAID array. When I searched for that I didn't find it, so asked here instead.

The things have come a long way. Thing is data recovery is not at all the same if something happens.

I would always have a multiple backup plan for your work, pics and cyber valuables. But I would highly recommend the OS on an SSD, put AH on that drive. Put your apps on that drive, enjoy the 1ms seek time. There quiet, small, eco friendly, they just ain't spin drives. care and maintenance diff.


 :salute
This is why the hybrid drives, ssd speeds with a built in backup spinner. I'd just get an SSD and use your TB spinner for storage.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: RAID
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2016, 01:21:18 AM »
MADe, I already do all that. This was just a question about AH3.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: RAID
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2016, 06:00:02 AM »
Back in the day when SSDs first came out, Skuzzy expressed concern about running the game on those drives.  I don't think those concerns have any validity any more (if they ever did), if that's what's holding you back.  Get an SSD for Aces High and don't worry about it further.

Actually, when we were in Beta there were a couple of SSD users who had problems.  There were (are?) some firmware issues with some SSD's which caused patches to arbitrarily fail and corrupt the installation.  During the Beta test.  We had to warn players not to run the Beta on their SSD due to some of them getting corruption during patches.

There is an inherent issue with how SSD's cannot update data.  Once data is written it cannot be directly altered.  It is a very clumsy thing the SSD's go through, when a file needs to be updated.

They actually have to make a copy of the original file into a RAM disk, then when the file is updated, they copy the file to a temp name on the SSD, then remove the original file, then rename the temp file.  During this awkward process, the file is locked which means no further updates can be done until it is complete.  This is where or when the corruption can occur.

For each block of data changed in a file, it has to go through this dance.  For any given file, a patch can do this hundreds of times.  There are firmware issues with some SSD's which cause the errors to happen.  There is also a timeout issue which can cause problems when patching large files.  None of this is in our control.

To make matters worse, our patch system makes a copy of the file to be patched, applies the patch to that file and then renames the file.  Assuming your C: drive is an SSD and you are running the game off the SSD.

1) Make a copy of the file to be patched.
2) Now we want to update a block in that temp file.
 2a) The SSD makes a copy of the temp file in system RAM.
 2b) The SSD then updates the block in that second temp file.
3) Patch executable closes the file.
 3a) The SSD copies the temp from from system RAM back to a another temp location on the SSD.
 3b) Now the SSD removes the original temp file.
 3c) Then renames its temp file to the original temp file name.
4) Patch executable verifies the patch to the temp file was successful by generating an MD5 checksum and comparing it to what it is supposed to be.
5) Assuming that checksum test passes, the patch executable removes the original file.
6) Then renames the temp file to the name of the file it was patching.

The error we witnessed with a couple of the SSD users (I think it really is a firmware bug with only some of the SSD's) had to do with the multiple block updates being done and the SSD failing to lock the file during its own processes or locking the file and failing a write if it did not unlock soon enough, but not reporting an error back to the OS.
 
We can fix it and do what most other games do.  Not patch at all, just ship the entire file that needs to be updated.  It would make patches huge.  Matter of fact, in many patch cases, it would be the complete game.  So instead of a 100K patch, it would be 1.9GB.

There is really nothing to be gained from running Aces High III from an SSD.  We preload everything.  If you have an HD, then use it for Aces High III and save the SSD for stuff it can actually make a difference with.

SSD's are great for static data, but Aces High III is not static at all.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 06:40:17 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Wiley

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Re: RAID
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2016, 12:42:01 PM »

There is really nothing to be gained from running Aces High III from an SSD.  We preload everything.  If you have an HD, then use it for Aces High III and save the SSD for stuff it can actually make a difference with.

SSD's are great for static data, but Aces High III is not static at all.

I really hate to ask the guy that knows what's going on behind the curtain, but I do have a question about the above paragraph.

So once the game has loaded when you join an arena, there's absolutely no loading from the hard drive?  Every single skin for every vehicle is preloaded?  Every single ground object/terrain file/whatever else is preloaded?  So no matter what you run into in the arena, there is zero hard drive access?

The reason I ask is in the backwhen my system was marginal on AH2.  Loading the arena could bog my system to the point it would disable advanced graphics because the FR dropped too low for too long.  Once it was loaded my framerate was pretty stable, except occasionally when I'd run into a few new aircraft coming into range of my plane.  My FR would dip slightly, then get back up to max.  I had always assumed it was the HD getting whatever skin the guys were using.

Am I wrong?

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: RAID
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2016, 01:30:58 PM »
I really hate to ask the guy that knows what's going on behind the curtain, but I do have a question about the above paragraph.

So once the game has loaded when you join an arena, there's absolutely no loading from the hard drive?  Every single skin for every vehicle is preloaded?  Every single ground object/terrain file/whatever else is preloaded?  So no matter what you run into in the arena, there is zero hard drive access?

The reason I ask is in the backwhen my system was marginal on AH2.  Loading the arena could bog my system to the point it would disable advanced graphics because the FR dropped too low for too long.  Once it was loaded my framerate was pretty stable, except occasionally when I'd run into a few new aircraft coming into range of my plane.  My FR would dip slightly, then get back up to max.  I had always assumed it was the HD getting whatever skin the guys were using.

Am I wrong?

Wiley.

The game preloads what it needs before it needs it.  A drop in the frame rate is simply more stuff being added to the draw queue.  If you watch your disk activity when the game runs, after being in the arena for a few minutes, it gets pretty low.

The drop in the details, due to long load times, was not the disk load times.  It was the time it took to allocate memory and how fast it could shove it to the video card.  An HD could extend those times, but if it was, to the point it made a difference, then something else was wrong with the system.

I have run every version of Aces High off of HD's and never had a problem with load times and my work system is a slug compared to what many run (2.4Ghz dual core CPU, 4 GB of system RAM, AMD 4870 video card).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 01:36:14 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Wiley

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Re: RAID
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2016, 04:50:12 PM »
Sounds plausible on all fronts.  I upgraded the entire system when the time came so never found what the specific issue was.  Appreciate the information.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11