Questions about the P47 proformance (long)

[Westy]

 That's suprising Juzz (not discounting the info, mind you!) as it does seem to go against pilot anecdotes from both sides on what the P-47 really had going for it, the dive. I'm in no way capable of saying what is right or wrong being that I do not have hand ons experience nor an aeronautical engineering degree. Which is why I usually don't make any ambiguous or spout an uninformed opinion that the FM of the 47 is "porked" in regard to diving - or that another aircraft's FM may be too "forgiving". I tend to always look internally (operator error <G> ) for cause of error first and with the AH P-47 I figure it is a case of having to toss out most of what I learned in other sims to fly this one.  Rolls, dives and zoom climb are the usual tricks. I'll have to relearn the dive for starters I think.
 Sorry to have hijacked your topic Thor^    

  -Westy
 
 
 


[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 06-27-2000).]

[Dead Man Flying]

Westy, if I recall correctly from the 1.03 readme, compression is not modelled yet for all aircraft.  Perhaps HTC hasn't modelled compression on the 109 yet, though clearly it's done so for the P-47.  That might explain what happened to ya.

-- Todd/DMF

[Thor^]

reply to Lephturn

>Only your Indicated Airspeed counts when you are talking about compression and dive speed.  In your above post you didn't mention going over 500 TAS, and you weren't even close to over 500 IAS.<

(this is what im talking about.i did the tests again at 30k starting at 250ias 400tas.about as fast as i could get it.i did a split S with wep and pulling around 3g
i came out with no problem at 18k 375 ias 500tas and i did NOT use the dive break! i did this prity much all the way to the deck.
starting at 30k and working my way down)

>If you push a Jug past 500 Mph IAS it WILL compress, and badly in AH.<

i have experinced this =)

>Without the dive flap it is VERY hard to recover it in this condition.<

on the deck 600ias 600tas even the dive break dosent help =)

>I was not talking about regular "flaps", but the special "dive recovery flap" that was installed on the later model P-47's,<

sorry i dident make my self clear.i was refering to the dive break.my bad

>This film was made before the advent of that flap, so if a pilot got a P-47 into compression, it was very difficult if not impossible to pull out of the dive.<

>The earlier versions of the P-47 did not have this feature, so they would have likely killed a bunch of pilots in training without this kind of warning.<

If im not using the dive flaps shouldent i get simelar results as the early war P47?
it seems to me that the split S is an importent part of any ACM.I just dont think they would tell them not to use power during the move if they could with ease.It seems to me it would take away a life saving move for no resion at all.

and your right the P47 in AH is the best i have seen yet.im not nocking the game honest =) im just trying to understand the jug a little more.
from the film i always got the impresion that maby the dive acceleration was so suden
that compresion in the split S was otomatic if you dident watch your speed.

has any one watchd the film im refering to?
if not i can get the url for you all=)
wouldent be suprised if you all have watched every film on the site allready =) lol

with respect Thor^



[This message has been edited by Thor^ (edited 06-27-2000).]

[juzz]

OK, I'm not sure how reliable these figures are, but here they are anyway.

Compression speeds of some AH fighters(Mach number). Generated in Aces High(not RL figures).

P-47D-30: 0.78
P-38L: 0.74
P-51D: 0.80
Spitfire: 0.83
Me 109: 0.83
Fw 190A: 0.81
F4U-1D: 0.81

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-27-2000).]

[SnakeEyes]

Any idea what alt you were at when it started, Westy?

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Fariz]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
Real pilots didn't pull lots of G in WW2 like we do in sims. Try a split-s at 2 or 3 G and see what happens.

2 or 3G is nothing, it is normal for a fight. Problems for pilots starts at 6+G.

Fariz
XII Legion

[minus]

true fariz but if u eat this 2 ,3 g everi day u gona see :-)))

[Citabria]

compression starts based on true air speed not indicated airspeed.


we're talking mach limits here all based on tas

[Westy]

Good point DMF.    About 20-25k Snakeyes.
I'm going to film more for sure. Without a film of what I'd done it makes it hard for me to guess at what the cause was. Thanks!

-Westy

[Lephturn]

Fine thor, but I'm saying the film is a bit cautios, but the P47-D-30 is right.  The error here is the source material, not the flight model IMHO.

BTW, did the film specify what starting speed?  I'd say 250 is a bit slow for a place to start.  Who knows.



------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Daff]

I got the same stuff mentionedin the P-47 Pilots Manual..I'll check it when I get home.

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

[SKurj]

seen 650knots in a dive in g10 eeerr well around 645 with wings comin off at 650 +)


SKurj

[Daff]

Ok, found the diagram in the P-47 Manual :
"Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions
For Army models
RP-47B & C and P47D & G
Airplanes
British model Thunderbolt"
AN 01-65BC-1 A.P No. 2381A
November 20, 1943

"P47 Airplanes
Altitude loss and speed attained in Half Rolls Pull Outs at approx 4 G's held constant"

(ed: all split-S's bottom out at 2000'. I will qoute starting altitude, starting speed and end speed (IAS)).

15.100' , 400 IAS, 525 IAS
13.800' , 350 IAS, 490 IAS
12.300' , 300 IAS, 450 IAS
10.400' , 250 IAS, 400 IAS
8.400'  , 200 IAS, 342 IAS
6.200'  , 150 IAS, 277 IAS

Daff


------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

[funked]

Citabria, it's neither IAS nor TAS that matters, but the Mach number, Ma.    


FunkedUp
Official Citabria Post Slagger

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-28-2000).]

[Thor^]

the film stated 2 starting speeds and had
a dirgam of results for both 150 ias and 350 ias. funny now that i think about it i seem to rember in the take off and landing film on the same site that the jug would almost stall at 150 TAS when landing. if this were
true then would the juge be stalling at 150 ias also?

in the film i cant read all the numbers for alt its cut off eather by my player or somthing else. i have assumed all along that
the alts given were 30k 20k 10k but i may
have been wrong i dont know.

ok another question i have (this is not an insult or any thing ) i just wonder why people somtimes question sorce material?
wouldent the people who made it know more than the people reserching it? ie the origanel manuls?

another thing i read about people geting mad
becus questions like mine devolv in to the (it is ..it isent ..it is ..it isent) kinds of threads i dont want to do that its not my gol.

i do not have access to any real good data just what i can find on the net.
so if thos of you who are good at working the data would give me a hand i would be gratful. Im willing to do any tests but i need to know what to do...and maby how to do it.

Daff i hope you get this fare down my letter here =)
maby im not all that bright could you tell me if i read your info right..or any one who understood it.
are you saying that at a starting alt of    15.100'and a ias of 400 the jug drops to 2000' with a ias of 525? did i read that right? if i have this right than the info on the film may be corect. As i stated i was asuming alt but if tests were dun from 15k
that could explain the film...i am going to asume i read Daffs post right and go do the tests as he has them and see what hapens.

thanks for every ones replys and time given to help me understand things.