Author Topic: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3  (Read 3311 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« on: February 13, 2017, 02:47:06 AM »
I may tweak the specular settings a tad along with a few panels that I just noticed...but we are a LONG way from where it started.   It's hard to believe this is the same Mustang.

I began this project because *my* "Jo-Baby" gave me a painting of this airplane signed by Lt. McCampbell as a birthday present one year.   It has now morphed into an additional seven skins.   

:x 

I have had a blast doing this.   Thanks to all of you for the help, advice, criticism, and encouragement.   We've definitely made progress. 

 :salute


Here's the original.







Here's the latest...









The real Jo-Baby, third from camera:   



A different shot in hi-res of the same formation which I based my color selection upon:

http://www.cloud9photography.us/Military-Aviation-9/North-American-P-51-Mustang/i-gjxKKDN
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 05:21:04 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline BuckShot

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2017, 12:21:11 PM »
Nice! Big improvement.
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Offline Greebo

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2017, 05:31:02 PM »
Adding the lighting effects has improved the skin a lot, it is less "flat" looking. I'd still like to see some variation between individual metal panels on the fuselage though. You can see this on the photo of "Miss Ruth", the panel below the star and bar insignia is darker and bluer than the panels around it. This sort of variation came about from panels on the aircraft coming from different batches of aluminium, perhaps a different thickness or strength of alloy being used here and there. Adding some variation would make it look less like shiny grey paint.

Offline USRanger

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 09:49:37 PM »
The red & yellow are too rich.  Just my opinion. :salute
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2017, 07:50:10 PM »
Adding the lighting effects has improved the skin a lot, it is less "flat" looking. I'd still like to see some variation between individual metal panels on the fuselage though. You can see this on the photo of "Miss Ruth", the panel below the star and bar insignia is darker and bluer than the panels around it. This sort of variation came about from panels on the aircraft coming from different batches of aluminium, perhaps a different thickness or strength of alloy being used here and there. Adding some variation would make it look less like shiny grey paint.

No disrespect intended with the following..

I am aware of the reasons behind panel variations.   Having stared at literally THOUSANDS of Mustang photos, however, there is no hard rule for how they appear.   For every photo that shows obvious differences I can find two with little or none. 

The only trend I see is that variation diminishes with time.   This is due to tarnish and/or corrosion.   Some airplanes actually look like they're painted a uniform color, that's how close they are to being the same. 

MISS RUTH's blue hue under the national insignia is due to reflectivity not a panel color difference, IMHO.  The trailing edge wing fairing was often lighter than the surrounding metal on the D--though not always.   I think that's what we are seeing, and the sun is washing out the rest.   Regardless of cause, JO-BABY doesn't have this in any photo of her I have access to.

My biggest hangup with the variation as shown in the game is one of subtlety.  Even a one percent in brightness is too stark.   I don't know if it is better addressed with a hue change. 

The game with all ighting enabled washes out the metal in direct light.   Toning that down makes the skin look gray.  It's extremely frustrating.  I am at a loss.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 09:59:08 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2017, 08:55:09 PM »
It's extremely frustrating.  I am at a loss.

Greebo makes metal look like metal. If you want your metal to do the same, listen to Greebo. Also, grab the default P-47D-25 and D-40 that he did and study the bitmaps. Bare metal is extremely difficult, but we have a master here - heed his advice.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2017, 09:11:01 PM »
Greebo makes metal look like metal. If you want your metal to do the same, listen to Greebo. Also, grab the default P-47D-25 and D-40 that he did and study the bitmaps. Bare metal is extremely difficult, but we have a master here - heed his advice.


Listening to you guys is how I got this far in the first place.  :cheers:  That being said...and again, no disrespect intended...

I disagree.  I fly real airplane's made out of metal.  He approximates metal and does a pretty fine job, but the game has limitations. 

I've stared at thousands of photos of these airplane's.   I've stared at them up close.  I've flown some of them even. 

I've flown every NMF skin in the game offline, not just his.   None of them look right, especially the Mustangs (which, generally speaking, had painted wings as discussed elsewhere).  Some are better than others but none are without flaws. 

Less is more, but nobody seems to get that. 

Panel variation is not the problem I'm having--I think specular reflectivity and/or tone is/are.   With ALL LIGHTING it gets washed out into chalky white.   In shadow it turns gray.   I'm banging my head against a wall.  :bhead

Any way...

Soon it will be someone else's problem.  I'm leaving when my six month subscription expires.    You guys can paint them with mud and charcoal at that point for all I care.  They're obviously worthless any way since the commmon misperception is these planes look(ed) in real life like someone hit them with a dump truck. 

I'm making a few more passes to improve them over the next few months then I'm out.   When the 3D shapes are updated to the new standard my skins will fade into oblivion and none will be the wiser.   :salute
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 11:58:05 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2017, 09:11:39 PM »
Nice! Big improvement.

Thanks man.   :salute
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2017, 09:18:29 PM »
The red & yellow are too rich.  Just my opinion. :salute

Thanks for the input.  I feel the evidence indicates otherwise.  If I desaturate them any more the plane looks like a cartoon. 

Perhaps the hue needs a little tweak, though.

The best photos out there (like the following) along with the book on my desk--"Spitfires and Yellow Tails"--show the yellow (and usually the red) as very stark.  Duplicating the gloss has been a challenge I'm still wrestling with.

You be the judge.   :salute



« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 11:58:48 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Fencer51

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2017, 11:19:37 AM »
Thing is that they were not trying to hide who or what they were in the air.  Those colors were meant to be bright and to stand out.  Unlike the Luftwaffe which got more and more drab as the war went on.  :D
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2017, 02:03:33 PM »
Thing is that they were not trying to hide who or what they were in the air.  Those colors were meant to be bright and to stand out.  Unlike the Luftwaffe which got more and more drab as the war went on.  :D

Well said.   :salute
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2017, 04:22:54 PM »
I'm also going to point out (before I forget) that the panel on MISS RUTH Act of the wingroot fairing is not a different color than those beside it, IMO, but is actually at a different angle.  As a result it is reflecting light differently.  The blue in the national insignia (which is painted with the same color throughout) on that panel shows evidence of this phenomenon. 
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2017, 04:46:08 PM »
I'm also going to point out (before I forget) that the panel on MISS RUTH Act of the wingroot fairing is not a different color than those beside it, IMO, but is actually at a different angle.  As a result it is reflecting light differently.  The blue in the national insignia (which is painted with the same color throughout) on that panel shows evidence of this phenomenon.

I beg to differ, the color shift occurs along the entirety of the panel line with the wing root fairing. The fairing only changes shape close to the wing itself, but joins the fuselage close to flush.







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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2017, 05:01:15 PM »
I beg to differ, the color shift occurs along the entirety of the panel line with the wing root fairing. The fairing only changes shape close to the wing itself, but joins the fuselage close to flush.

Walk up to one and touch it.  They are multi-angled. 

The panel (or panels) aft of the wing root fairing bends around the fuselage.   The color shift you see is light-induced.    The roundel section of the national insignia is reflecting light at a slightly different angle.  That's why the dark blue has a non-identical hue.


The wing-root fairing on MISS RUTH is both light-shifting AND materially different (the latter on some Mustangs, not all). 




Some Mustangs (again, not all) DO have a different color aluminum on that panel aft of the fairing.  Some skip a panel.  Some look identical.







As the plane ages the panel color differences moderate due to tarnish. 

I see this on the bright work of my airplane every year after they're polished.   Within a couple of months the shine goes from being like a mirror to dull like a coke can.



In shadow this Mustang appears gray, again due to tarnish.   It wouldn't take long for the environment of Europe to tarnish the shine on an unpainted airplane.

Using restored warbirds is not always a reliable source.   Only a handful come close to how they would have appeared during the war.



Another with the varied fuselage panel aft of the wingroot.   I can find no explanation as to why some had this and others did not.   I've found a half dozen variations on this. 


Examples:

- Some match the fairing to the bright side. 

- Some have a bright fairing, then--as we move aft--a panel that doesn't match, then a panel that matches the fairing.

- Some have a standard color fairing but skip TWO panels before a change (bottom).

- Some have all three the same color as the rest of the fuselage.

- Some have all three being different (below).



« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 05:45:18 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Owlblink

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Re: Jo-Baby - P-51D 52FG, 4FS - Updated AH3
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2017, 11:43:26 PM »
I think it looks great! Can only get better:-)

I agree with your comment on the lighting htting the curves and sometimes the dents in thr metal is what causes many of thr color variations, least from what I can see from your examples.

IF you were to vary the color on the frame panels ever so slightly (and maybe some very small tweaking on bitmap angles to adjust how the light reflects) it may mimic the light reflecting effect for our virtual world. I'm sure you'll get it close to perfection in the long run!

I hope you come back, will miss another pilot with knowledge taking off for the final time.
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