Author Topic: Chess Piece Loyalty, ENY, the Bish Dominance Problem, and a Suggestion  (Read 12028 times)

Offline nugetx

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 628
Quote
he strategy involved is likened to chess (balance assets and opportunities), yet the game being played is checkers (pile on with  numbers and swing wildly), just with chess pieces. 

But both of them have 2 sides not 3.......  :neener:

Offline Chilli

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4278
But both of them have 2 sides not 3.......  :neener:

Maybe I should have said Chinese Checkers (haven't played that since I was very young man).  Then I would have only been half wrong  :police:

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27070
I'm a strategy player but I'd tolerate losing 90% of the time as long as the team I was flying for was at least trying to win.
All three sides get into a furball or grind-the-already-beaten-adversary-into-the-dust mentality at times, and when the bish do it's less frustrating for me to fly for the rooks, even though they'll very likely lose. And all three sides have their share of strategy players, but I think the bish in general are more map-win oriented. This attitude + numbers = bish wins most of the time.

I like to look for the largest enemy darbar and go there. It is usually where the fight is. Sometimes the fight is just one base over from where a huge bar is.

Still the absolute best is when a CV is just off shore. All quick, low and digging over the water.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline 1stpar3

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3719
Maybe I should have said Chinese Checkers (haven't played that since I was very young man).  Then I would have only been half wrong  :police:
There is a GREAT MEMORY! I loved Chinese Checkers! Even if it was just me and Sis! Play 2 or 3 sides and really beat her to a pulp :devil Its only half my personality to do so...SHE did whine so well,seemed a shame not to encourage her talent :uhoh    Good to see you back CHILLI, sorry I killed you first thing...really am :O Didnt expect the La-5 to be you  :rock
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline RufusLeaking

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1056
How is Bish dominance defined? Winning maps? It is a good day when large dar bars are within a short hop. Base taking is reason for action. Having a victory condition drives the strategy, which drives the tactics. If the Bish win, so be it.  :salute

On chess piece loyalty, I confess that I have been a Rook for years. It is not sacred. I have got to know some good guys in the virtual sense. Roughly knowing which folks are reliable is much less frustrating. Over time, there are people on the other sides that I often cuss when they shoot me down. Childish of me, but it gets me motivated to try to hunt them down. I should probably salute more often, especially those that are better at this game than me.  :salute

None of this is a problem. The biggest problem is that I don't have enough time to play.  :bhead

In the end, people should be able to play as they wish. Forced side switching is a bad idea.  :old:
GameID: RufLeak
Claim Jumpers

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Sucks big time when one side uses a hoard as a war wining tool to do exactly that, Win a war. It doubly sucks when it happens with the low arena numbers we are at because it's more intense and blatantly obvious what is beating you, Numbers. In the old days of 400-600 the hoards avoided each other and they were about the same size. Back then there was enough side activity that you could roll with the hoard or take part in smaller actions. Many lone wolf types took advantage of the hoards to land huge kill strings.

I doubt today as many people play this game for pure air combat. Seems many play for the activities they can get into with all of the toys, while one might venture the more energetic flip the map types are moving over to the bish. My squad was knights for the last 10 years and in the last 6 months moved to the rooks in the hopes of balancing ENY. Both sides seem devoid of energetic flip the map types. The knights have more numbers than the rooks, but the bish have almost equal numbers to both the knights and rooks at times.

In this game numbers kick qualitie's kester and flips maps. Leroy Jenkins has been avenged.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6657
Sucks big time when one side uses a hoard as a war wining tool to do exactly that, Win a war. It doubly sucks when it happens with the low arena numbers we are at because it's more intense and blatantly obvious what is beating you, Numbers. In the old days of 400-600 the hoards avoided each other and they were about the same size. Back then there was enough side activity that you could roll with the hoard or take part in smaller actions. Many lone wolf types took advantage of the hoards to land huge kill strings.

I doubt today as many people play this game for pure air combat. Seems many play for the activities they can get into with all of the toys, while one might venture the more energetic flip the map types are moving over to the bish. My squad was knights for the last 10 years and in the last 6 months moved to the rooks in the hopes of balancing ENY. Both sides seem devoid of energetic flip the map types. The knights have more numbers than the rooks, but the bish have almost equal numbers to both the knights and rooks at times.

In this game numbers kick qualitie's kester and flips maps. Leroy Jenkins has been avenged.


The best way to stop so many hoarding is for smaller maps, which has a smaller area to play in. Then you could have the same amount of bases you normally have, but just closer together so that they all fit. With closer back bases on a smaller map, players have the ability to defend from a back base a lot easier. This can have a big impact on limiting the hoard. Right now, you got bases that take 15 minutes to fly to, this creates high cons, secondly, it creates a team of hoarders to attack a base so they can take it down before the town pops. Thirdly, it creates long boring flights which mean high alt fights, which means normally the attack squad is going to already be 15K. This means the attack squad will have the #s and alt to pick off the lower defenders, then the cap comes. With shorter bases distances. Your team would have a much better opportunity at base defending in planes, rather than just roll Wirbles, 88s, or resupply.

If you look at Louches #s, you will see that the majority of players do spend on average 42% of their time in fighters, and like he said, some players, including myself, only get in these vehicles or bombers when there are no fights at all.

People have left because A. It takes too long to fly to a base for 1-2 (maybe enemies according the to dar). Players don't like aimlessly flying around for 20 minutes looking for a guy to shoot. This has been brutal for the off hours because this type of game play is slow, players have logged because it's slow and that makes it even slower. The hoards get created because when you have to fly 20 minutes to a base, it takes a good amount of people or no opposition to actually capture the field. This creates hoards. So, what I think would work better is, no manual resupply, just let teams capture bases if they get it down. This would change the fronts a little more quickly, and allow for more fights in the back part of the maps as well. With closer bases the defenders would be able to get to their base more quickly and stop the hoard. This would bring more fighting and less ganging/hoarding overall.

Btw, bustr, I think right now you are on the right track for the current maps you are working on. But I just think the fronts and bases should be 17 miles apart and just stick in more bases if you need to. It's fine if one team takes base after after base in the off hours, the shorter base distances will create better fights and probably stop so much hoarding. During the off hours especially, the players need to be pushed into a much smaller arena. The game play would be so much more enjoyable.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 01:51:02 PM by DmonSlyr »
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17921
      • Fugi's Aces Help

The best way to stop so many hoarding is for smaller maps, which has a smaller area to play in. Then you could have the same amount of bases you normally have, but just closer together so that they all fit. With closer back bases on a smaller map, players have the ability to defend from a back base a lot easier. This can have a big impact on limiting the hoard. Right now, you got bases that take 15 minutes to fly to, this creates high cons, secondly, it creates a team of hoarders to attack a base so they can take it down before the town pops. Thirdly, it creates long boring flights which mean high alt fights, which means normally the attack squad is going to already be 15K. This means the attack squad will have the #s and alt to pick off the lower defenders, then the cap comes. With shorter bases distances. Your team would have a much better opportunity at base defending in planes, rather than just roll Wirbles, 88s, or resupply.

If you look at Louches #s, you will see that the majority of players do spend on average 42% of their time in fighters, and like he said, some players, including myself, only get in these vehicles or bombers when there are no fights at all.

People have left because A. It takes too long to fly to a base for 1-2 (maybe enemies according the to dar). Players don't like aimlessly flying around for 20 minutes looking for a guy to shoot. This has been brutal for the off hours because this type of game play is slow, players have logged because it's slow and that makes it even slower. The hoards get created because when you have to fly 20 minutes to a base, it takes a good amount of people or no opposition to actually capture the field. This creates hoards. So, what I think would work better is, no manual resupply, just let teams capture bases if they get it down. This would change the fronts a little more quickly, and allow for more fights in the back part of the maps as well. With closer bases the defenders would be able to get to their base more quickly and stop the hoard. This would bring more fighting and less ganging/hoarding overall.

Btw, bustr, I think right now you are on the right track for the current maps you are working on. But I just think the fronts and bases should be 17 miles apart and just stick in more bases if you need to. It's fine if one team takes base after after base in the off hours, the shorter base distances will create better fights and probably stop so much hoarding. During the off hours especially, the players need to be pushed into a much smaller arena. The game play would be so much more enjoyable.

Saturday we had NDilse up, one of the original SMALL maps we have. Rooks were being horded from both sides and down to 40% of their bases left. Kinda blows your "idea" out of the water.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors

The best way to stop so many hoarding is for smaller maps, which has a smaller area to play in. Then you could have the same amount of bases you normally have, but just closer together so that they all fit. With closer back bases on a smaller map, players have the ability to defend from a back base a lot easier. This can have a big impact on limiting the hoard. Right now, you got bases that take 15 minutes to fly to, this creates high cons, secondly, it creates a team of hoarders to attack a base so they can take it down before the town pops. Thirdly, it creates long boring flights which mean high alt fights, which means normally the attack squad is going to already be 15K. This means the attack squad will have the #s and alt to pick off the lower defenders, then the cap comes. With shorter bases distances. Your team would have a much better opportunity at base defending in planes, rather than just roll Wirbles, 88s, or resupply.

If you look at Louches #s, you will see that the majority of players do spend on average 42% of their time in fighters, and like he said, some players, including myself, only get in these vehicles or bombers when there are no fights at all.

People have left because A. It takes too long to fly to a base for 1-2 (maybe enemies according the to dar). Players don't like aimlessly flying around for 20 minutes looking for a guy to shoot. This has been brutal for the off hours because this type of game play is slow, players have logged because it's slow and that makes it even slower. The hoards get created because when you have to fly 20 minutes to a base, it takes a good amount of people or no opposition to actually capture the field. This creates hoards. So, what I think would work better is, no manual resupply, just let teams capture bases if they get it down. This would change the fronts a little more quickly, and allow for more fights in the back part of the maps as well. With closer bases the defenders would be able to get to their base more quickly and stop the hoard. This would bring more fighting and less ganging/hoarding overall.

Btw, bustr, I think right now you are on the right track for the current maps you are working on. But I just think the fronts and bases should be 17 miles apart and just stick in more bases if you need to. It's fine if one team takes base after after base in the off hours, the shorter base distances will create better fights and probably stop so much hoarding. During the off hours especially, the players need to be pushed into a much smaller arena. The game play would be so much more enjoyable.

Smaller maps will not stop hording or control it in any way.  Anyone that remembers VoD on the small Euro map in AW will attest that small maps do not stop hording bases.  If it did, AW would have never needed zone limits on bases.
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6657
Saturday we had NDilse up, one of the original SMALL maps we have. Rooks were being horded from both sides and down to 40% of their bases left. Kinda blows your "idea" out of the water.

Ehh, most of the bases are still 25 miles apart but it has still produced the best fights in a while considering. My opinion is that there needs to be smaller maps for the current #s, along with shorter base distances. You could use a very small map, with 40 mile apart bases, and it would still be boring.


Smaller maps will not stop hording or control it in any way.  Anyone that remembers VoD on the small Euro map in AW will attest that small maps do not stop hording bases.  If it did, AW would have never needed zone limits on bases.

Smaller maps will work, but they need shorter base distances, that is the real key. We need maps that funnel the action better. The majority of players that have left for actual game play do so because it has gotten too slow. Shorter base distances would great increase the action, especially during the off hours. I think Festers map worked great, even though it was a bigger map, simply because the bases funneled action and the bases weren't light years apart. Far away bases make the hoard much worse and makes the game play more stale. This is something I've felt since I first started the game and I still think it's an issue for most people playing the game.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 02:12:45 PM by DmonSlyr »
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6657
In all fairness, team coordination is the most realistic way to win battles and stop hoards, or create hoards. But those are things that cannot always be done. The VH should be the first thing that goes down, but team coordination can be a very challenging effort as players are free to do what they want.

I'm just pointing out things that I think are real reasons why hoarding and ganging has become so prevelant, and why #s have dropped because of specific game play issues that cause either A, boredom or B, frustration.
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline Biggamer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Bish win wars because they help when you ask for it. ive flown for all sides and when you ask for help to hit strats or take a base on rooks or knights you are wasting your time because you aint gonna get any.

most knights fly fighters most rooks drive tanks. the problem is bombers win wars and thats what most bish fly.  you wanna win wars up 10 sets of lancs and put 10 in M3s on the ground you get 2k out from map room spread troops out everywhere and watch the fighters crash and run out bullets trying to stop them. and you will roll bases all day day long not much they can do about it except like it. and you dont even really need them many but it look pretty and its very powerful.
G3-MF

Offline 1ijac

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 996
Smaller maps will not stop hording or control it in any way.  Anyone that remembers VoD on the small Euro map in AW will attest that small maps do not stop hording bases.  If it did, AW would have never needed zone limits on bases.

Ahhh,  the VOD, B85, a vulcher's and furballer's paradise.  The Czs would complain, because the Azs and the Bzs would slug it out there and they didn't have anyone to fight.  Thanks for stimulating some good memories Ack-ack.
"One-Eye"

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
If you look at Louches



Is that some kind of French cabbage?

Plat Principal: Soup de louches & fromage  :banana:
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Here soon we will get to see if DmonSlyr is correct about setting as many airfields as possible as close together as possible. This terrain is the smallest Hitech will allow in the Melee arena, 10x10. The majority of airfields are the minimum Hitech will allow with an exception for three of them. The minimum is 3\4 of a sector or 19miles. The three in the center island are a copy of the three small airfields on the center of NDilses. They are 13 miles from each other.

I'm betting this terrain will get rolled by the bish mini hoard in one day who do not care about ACM or furballing. The bases are close together to get at the bad guys quicker, if they want to furball instead of flip the map as fast as possible which placing airfields closer together helps the hoard to do faster. But hey, the bases will be closer together, hoorahhh.....

You can see I have a number of islands left to create mountains on before I get to lay down bases and test upping a plane from everything possible and spawning a GV from every single base to every single spawn. I suspect few of you wonders what is really involved in creating even a small terrain.


Oceania .v2.0






Arguing over who's assumptions are correct doesn't get this built. The white 1x1 mile place holders for small airfields are 13 miles apart. And just like on NDisles the map room will be on the grass near the tower. That's Waffle's 2x2 tank town object from NDisles, Hitech says he likes the idea of using indestructible bridges as GV choke points to create combat. Nice canals to lay bridges over and to furball over. I still have days of testing when I finally lay down airfields on this island if my design assumption here works when I finally get a GV on the ground. This screen shot is my 5th complete rebuild from the ground up of the 10 mile center diameter of the island.

If you think this is a finished bit of work and you want to share how I "should" make it better. There is another day or two of cosmetic finishing work on the cliff faces which was the only way to get the water way cracks from the base of them to look right. Originaly those cliff faces didn't exist and were runoff canyons into the center. Since those faces are 1900ft, the cracks with water in the bottom looked like crap and I couldn't get the bridges to span them correctly. So this last rebuild I just reduced the center 10mile circle to 25ft and went from there. Who knows what will really work in the Melee arena, I do know if someone isn't going through this crapola, nothing ever gets moved forward in this game.


 
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.