Question regarding tile objects

[Kanth]

going with the premise of keeping the polycount down, to keep frame rate down.

I'd guess you'd restrict the higher polycount to objects of which you can control the count of. 

If you allowed that in the terrain tool , sure you'd be able to do more defined shapes in the land, but the overall polycount would grow and that'd hurt frame rate. (also it wouldn't add any playability, like towns and stuff do, it'd just look different)

Why hasen't Hitech given us that instead of the smallest poly component being 1\8th of a mile?

[bustr]

I've refined my technique over two terrains that I could use a finer polymesh to eminently enhance the GV play-ability of the 3mile radius combat area centered from the town. Oceania required my building the terrain anywhere I placed a bridge by looking at the terrain from treetop level down to grass top level. It was eye opening how much a few feet of rise completely changed a 1000yds of terrain view space for a GV. At the same time getting down on the ground and working with the tree densities by thinning them out. I got caught up in a trap at the same time. I was using small brush applications of a few trees or bushes or grass from other tiles to micro manage the tank combat areas to the point it looked like garbage and stopped making sense to a GVer when I would spawn in to test the work. There is a fine line of doing that at each micro combat area and then it's too much and worthless. 

Many of the GV spawns on AH2 terrains appear to have been put in place from the perspective of "it would be nice to have tanks in at this location". Ones like the V85  spawn camp battle were an accident of good things in one spot, not a GV spawn camp vision of how to build micro terrain for tank combat around feilds. On Oceania the bridges over a stream and the three clover leaf islands with two bridges and a land ramp. I was testing two ideas to see how they would turn out. One is obvious, how would a bridge impact the GV game. The second was trying to get back to the concept of having high ground for tank fights without turning it into the old suicide spawn camping garbage. If the defenders and the attackers start out at about the same elevation, and have a low area between them, it makes a good place to fight. I think the town and spawn elevation was 500ft while the low area went all the way down to SL. Saw some good spawn battles happen. I'm looking at adapting that idea and the bridges into my new terrain. So that's a hundred and something mini tank combat arenas I get to design for every MA terrain.

This post by 8thJinx along with your response has me wondering. Could Hitech add a sub editor to the terrain editor that only allows you to create a micro terrain that is either 1x1 or 2x2 with the polymesh size used to make the objects like TT? And limit the max elevation to say 500ft. Then allow that to be laid down next to the town, or the town in one corner while you put the GV spawns on it or just outside of it using the circle tool.

This would allow creating micro hills like berms and micro topo structures. The artistry of it would end up being how to make it look like a natural part of your terrain design in each location. Obviously it would be built inheriting the tile set being used for the parent MA terrain under construction so you can paint it to blend in.   

[8thJinx]

A much smaller polygon size polymesh could be used as the terrain editor work space. Why hasen't Hitech given us that instead of the smallest poly component being 1\8th of a mile?

I asked them that a few weeks ago.  It comes down to the effort needed to redraw everything.  More polygons means more re-draws, which can tax frame rate.  And it boils down to a vertex count, since that's what the math is based on.

However, you can make a land object like tankland or a town, with more poly mesh detail than the TE mesh, insert it into the terrain, and not tax it too much.  I made the suggestion to them of making a series of land objects with more mesh detail, that in turn could be simply painted over with one of the atlas types, and then stuck in the terrain between the spawn and town.  They were straight with me and said they were interested to see anything I came up with.  Imagine real roads leading to towns and bases from the spawns, cutting through the forests.  Imagine berms and strong points along the way.  Easily done with a land object.  And the land object can literally have an object count of one, since the atlas types can provide the rest of the detail.

So based on that conversation, I think they'd at least consider that kind of thing for the main arena, in 2 mile squares (or a quad of 2 mile squares like tanklandnw, ne, se, sw). 

[Easyscor]

It was around seven years ago and it was with Pyro. At the time the verts were at 1/2 mile and I was pleading for 1/4 mile. It is all about the average user's hardware and frame rates. We are twice that now and it's plenty once we have the river paths. There is nothing you can think up now that can't be included, it just can't be everywhere. Jinx will tell you there are many things to learn to do them successfully.

[bustr]

My focus is the MA.

If when I laid down a field and town or just a field with map room, then outlined a 2x2 area next to or, with one of them on it and it pulled open into a new window with a smaller polymesh. Then I edit it until I run "build" to lock it in place. That would have solved your berm urge along with wanting more than a table top to drive around on. On my new terrain I think I have at least one change to that I can put in place but, it's playing with illusion because of the large polygon size like I did with those spawns on the clover leaf islands on Oceania.

An MA terrain is 100 sectors of illusion that players see only a tiny percentage of it close up. And the players who see it the most, for a bunch of old men are doing a bang up rendition of screeching like High School girls being grounded for a month. If you tune out the tantrum, they do have an interesting message. AH3 has great graphics, the micro world they play in has clunky old school topography. Can an MA terrain support using a much smaller polygon mesh at each field to a max area of 2x2 without killing FPS?

My apologies to the Boss, I'm not knocking the environment, just passing on something I picked up during my active player research sessions to help me build my terrains.

[8thJinx]

...without turning it into the old suicide spawn camping garbage.

Careful, now. Many, many, many people adored those areas.   

This post by 8thJinx along with your response has me wondering. Could Hitech add a sub editor to the terrain editor that only allows you to create a micro terrain that is either 1x1 or 2x2 with the polymesh size used to make the objects like TT? And limit the max elevation to say 500ft. Then allow that to be laid down next to the town, or the town in one corner while you put the GV spawns on it or just outside of it using the circle tool.

We have that already.  I've been using it for almost a month and a half now.  It's called AC3D, and it is awesome.   And I had that conversation about those land objects ("micro terrain") with the lads at HTC a couple weeks ago, and they said they'd be interested in seeing anything I came up with.  I have a growing list of things I want to create/re-create in those land objects:

The Crater
The 85 spawn
The 135/136 spawn
The 63 spawn into 52 on Compello

Here's a screen shot of AC3D, showing one of these land objects that we can create.

[8thJinx]

Here's the land mass I'm working on at the moment.  It's four 4x4 mile squares.

[bustr]

Will Hitech allow creating a 2x2 combat area on MA terrains for every field is the real question. And is it possible to add a function to the existing terrain editor to allow that editing inside of that application? I don't want to get into the custom object business because that and a whole MA terrain will be too much. And recycling the same few custom objects like the field, town, and TT over and over again to each location will bore the heck out of the customers because it will be "obvious". I've listened to conversations in the MA about just that when it comes to our strats, airfields, port and vBase objects. Kind of makes me wish that those objects came as component objects that can be mixed and matched inside of the 1x1 area as long as you follow a rule of placement and required objects. There were german airfields that were essentially gigantic pastures.

Or is there a horrible compromise in the end that yes, a 2x2 at every field location. You can create only "micro terrain" sans other objects, 2x2 max 500ft elevation but, you will have to open AC3D for every single one of them. You haven't built an MA terrain from soup to nuts yet have you...... Easyscor you ever going to try one of these monstrosities? L3DT has a sameness you can recognize in all the terrains so far in the MA because they look like a function created topo features based on a standard menu. The screen shots from my current work riftval don't look anything like Oceania or BowlMA, do they.....

Artik's program runs into the same problem I run into with MA terrains. The screen shots below show how I've used the smallest width brush in the TE and the bulldozer tool to pull rock strata. Two of them shows it from the air, the second up close with trees to see just how huge the polygons are. No one will get this close most of the time because I design the terrain for that so my illusion is enough from a distance. One compromise ends up being the micro terrain around feilds and towns that GV combat takes place. You rely on the clutter tiles more so than trying to create too many elevation features in a small space. On Oceania I experimented with the micro terrain on the clover leaf islands. Elevation is the problem because of how large the polygons are. Too much elevation can quickly be reached for a good looking micro topo feature with the current polygons, and then you turn one guy with german optics into Quigley with a death ray greifing a town, field, or both. That is not "balanced" game play, yes, with all of these neat toys, you still have to balance outcomes as much as you can to be fair to everyone defending or attacking. 

All of the work so far is just to learn how to create this look from building the unique topography, to how I want to paint it. And I still have all the testing of the GV combat micro terrains that will be around each spawn since what is an MA terrain but 100+ tiny tank combat arenas that happen to have airplanes flying around them. So I may have this terrain in rotation before getting anything concrete about micro terrains with a smaller polygon mesh inside of the MA terrain to facilitate GV combat areas. How do you test it in the MA with all those different PC's other than dumping it in and taking the heat? I've watched hours of our competitors films and their tank combat micro terrains look like the polygons are very small, but, 32 players only and the terrains fit in the corner of one of our sectors. 

 





 

[8thJinx]

Will Hitech allow creating a 2x2 combat area on MA terrains for every field is the real question. And is it possible to add a function to the existing terrain editor to allow that editing inside of that application?

I don't think a 2x2 object is necessary at every spawn, frankly. Maybe four or five along the fronts, total of 15 for a map, tops.  The interesting thing is that the small, single hangar motor pool VH bases aren't 1x1 or 2x2 objects.  They are stand alone objects like a building or a bridge.  So you could put the motor pool set up in the middle of a 2x2 mile or 4x4 land object, along with some interesting terrain features, and really make things interesting.  Imagine the great tanking setups you could have for the motor pool bases, instead of the larger-mesh bowls we have on CraterMA. 

Also, if you do it right, the land object really only has to be one single object.  You can use the atlas textures to add detail.  In fact one of the first of these land objects I made, I alpha'd out everything but my roads to allow the little villages to shine through on the final product (since in a one mile square, you know exactly where the atlas textures have buildings - the patterns are set in two mile squares).  The possibilities are huge as to what you can accomplish with a simple, square plot of land.

Regarding HTC's interest in the idea of additional 1x1 and 2x2 objects for the main arenas, I asked them that about six weeks ago.  Here's the email I received in response:

"No problem, and we would be interested in what you can come up with.  Here are the rules.

1)  The object has to be 1, 2 or 4 mile squares (i.e. 1x1, 2x2, or 4x4).
2)  The vertices along the edges have to be one per 660 feet.
3)  The vertices along the edges can only go up or down in 1 foot increments.

Now, once you get the boundary edge drawn, you can go nuts inside the box and do whatever you like.  However, we do caution against using too may vertices as that can hurt frame rates.  Keep them to a minimum to accomplish your goals.  We use L3DT to draw the meshes and then you can export that to AC3D to finish the work."

In another email, an additional caveat was imposed: for anything anyone creates for a main arena, the source files have to be sent to HTC for implementation into the editor and game resource files, at which point they become their property.

Right now, the game has 17 of these land shapes that have been added to a main arena terrain, including the tank town object, plus 8 other land tiles that haven't been seen yet.  I plan on making at least another 8, using their guidelines.  It's not an automatic lock that they'll then be available for use in a main arena.  But I am at least going to try.  At the very least I can use them in the AvA arenas.

[8thJinx]

And recycling the same few custom objects like the field, town, and TT over and over again to each location will bore the heck out of the customers because it will be "obvious".

One thing that can cut down on the repetition aspect is the ability to rotate the land object.  You have 4 variations of a single land object.  And if you made 8 of these things available, you'd actually have 32 variations.  And if you made these 8 objects as 1 mile objects, and placed two next to each other (which you can, I've done it), then you have 64 possible variations.  And if you laid out a path of 12 in a 3x4 grid leading from spawn to town/base, you'd have 384 variations, using just the eight 1-mile objects.  A path of 4x5 would be 640 variations.  You could have 10 main arena maps, with 64 of these areas, and not one of them would be the same.  And the beauty of it is that you're only using 64x20 = 1280 objects out of your 50,000 object budget. 

[bustr]

In the end you have limited variations, and since Hitech has yet to comment, he is probably waiting to see what you create and how that works out in the AvA. Observing him for 15 years and now two MA terrains. If what I'm asking about were to happen, it would be open one program, build a 2x2 micro terrain based on strict limitations to control FPS issues, then import into the TE. Since I create a "whole world" theme from scratch and not simply drop in a pre-built TT next to each town, or let L3DT auto generate repetitious terrain anomalies, then say it's a masterpiece of MA design. This doesn't work for me.

When I was a sayashi creating Japanese sword scabbards and handles by traditional methods. I spent years learning to use the tools and all the traditional methods and techniques. Just like any of the PBS or Discovery channel specials that ever showed that from Japan. I had an agent in SF and made shirasaya for a sword polisher in SF long before personal computer controlled CNC machines existed. One day I was asked to give a lecture about it. At the end a cabinet maker came up to me and told me I was wasting my time because he could do all of it in minutes with his power tools. He didn't need to waste his time learning ancient hand tool skills just to make a copy of a sword scabbard that no one would know the difference. My Japanese and American customers knew the difference. You can tell even today if a high precision CNC machine did the work when you interact with the piece.

I've already listened to players questioning the same old, same old of the default field, strat and town objects since AH3 has been live. Some were bored with the AH2 objects hoping AH3 would have some radically different offerings. I accomplished that at least with Oceania where the topography is concerned, but, how often does that one cycle around versus all the old school terrains converted to AH3. I still have my latest monstrosity to complete and make different than my previous offering.

Be careful becoming enamored of your process if you put any of this into the "Melee Arena", you will end up with 15 minutes of fame to be sure, then the community will treat you like a goat and a Janet Jackson song will come to mind. "What have you done for me lately"..... while people will PM you to rip you a new one for not making what they want their way or, demand you force Hitech do do what they want or else. I've had a squad member quit the game because I built my first terrain wrong and he didn't want to be screwed by my stupidity and Hitech allowing it.... . One quit a few days ago because I wouldn't tell Hitech the collision system is crap and he was convinced I was lying that I didn't have that much input with HTC. He was also trying to convince me how I should lay out the HQ and strats on my new terrain because he knows how to make the game better because he is an uber ACMist and so forth......

The AvA is much kinder to innovation and novelty and it's a good laboratory for Hitech to see how new ideas pan out by players who can use 3D content programs. MA terrains have to be a finished design on paper with a path to follow to produce the finished product with the tools at hand today. It has to meet a set of requirements that are integral in the finished design and theme. So I have to keep slogging along regardless of your outcomes unless two or three months from now Hitech decides one of your objects would be a nice enhancement for the Melee Arena. If that were to happen, redesign in mid production is a bite, but, I did do those bridges on the fly when I became stumped on a design assumption......   
     

[8thJinx]

If what I'm asking about were to happen, it would be open one program, build a 2x2 micro terrain based on strict limitations to control FPS issues, then import into the TE.

We have that.  That functionality exists, exactly how you describe it.   

[Kanth]

Wow Bustr, kinda blown away by the folks quitting but there are a lot of different sorts for sure on here.  Some take things a lot more seriously than others..and there will always be manipulative people. They should go.

Meanwhile, you are creating stuff that many many more people are enjoying.

I would suspect what you are describing is the same any of the larger objects that include their own terrain were created. Like towns where each building has it's own lawn around it etc. I believe Jinx was describing that.

I"m not familiar importing or creating custom objects for ace high at all.

We have that.  That functionality exists, exactly how you describe it.

what are some general steps to making that happen?

[8thJinx]

what are some general steps to making that happen?

There are only three pieces of software that you really need to make new objects like buildings, and new land objects like the 4 mile x 4 mile tankland objects:

Aces High Terrain Editor
Aces High Object Editor
AC3D Pro

And actually Easycor can make new objects just from a text file, which is absolute alchemy, imho.  My hat is off to him.

You could add L3DT to that list, but I've accomplished building and tile creation without having to use L3DT (even though I own the pro license).

For any object:
The easiest way to get started is to convert an existing shape to AC3D from within the Object Editor.  Here's the quick and dirty:
1. Pick a shape in the OE shape list, and select it with a mouse click.
2. Click the "Export to Ac3d" button.
3. Close the OE.
4. Go to your Aces High directory, and in the Export folder, you will find the AC3D file (extension .ac), and all of the bitmaps.  At this point you'd be neater if you copied this stuff over to a new folder outside of the Aces High directory, but that's not a requirement.
5. Open AC3D, and load the object file. 
6. You can push around, reconfigure, and reshape, re-weld, explode, group, hollow out, extrude... Do whatever you want and make the shape the way you want.  Note that in the destructible objects, HTC has a 'live' shape and a 'dead' shape.  You can play with the dead shapes too.
7. Once you've got the shape down, save it under a new name and close AC3D.
8. Open the bitmaps and change them to what you want, and save it using the naming convention Greebo described in the skins forum sticky.  This is a whole other topic, and Greebo covers most of it.  I would only add that the Alpha map can be your friend, allowing the atlas textures to come through your object wherever you wanted it to.  You want a road through your 2x2 land object? The make sure the path is delineated with polygons in AC3D, make sure it's 'painted' with the road surface, and that it's not Alpha'd out with the alpha map.
9. Go back into AC3D, and load the texture file you just modified. 
10.  Using AC3D's Texture Coordinate Editor (TCE), select the polys (one or multiple), and apply the textures from your bitmap.  Keep doing that until all your polys are painted with the new bitmap. Save and close.
11. Open the AC3D file in Notepad, and double check that the bitmap file names are correct.
12. Open the OE, and select File - Convert Ac3d File.  Find your way to your folder, and click on the AC3D file you just worked on.  This step creates the SHP and HTX files for your object, and deposits them in the 'userlib' folder in your Aces High III directory.
13. Copy the SHP and HTX files.  Go to the directory that holds the terrain you're working on (under the ah3terr folder), and paste these files into the texsrc folder.  Your  new object is now available for placement in the terrain. 
14. Open the TE and the terrain your are working on.
15. Select a point on the terrain where you want your object deposited.  Find your object in the list of shapes, highlight it, and click Add. Make sure you accurately set all of the flags in the object properties pop-up.  This can do things like make your object inert, make it burn when it blows up, give it an initial hardness, give it field or country ownership, etc.

You can also add your object to another object using the OE.
 
You might get some errors along the way, however, especially if the bitmap file names are wrong.  Also, if you try to add a color to a poly from AC3D's palette, you will get an error when you try to load it in the TE or OE.

Also, it would be worthwhile to learn the architecture of the AC3D file format.  It's actually a text file you can open in Notepad.  Opening it in Notepad lets you see all the stuff that gets programmed into your object, from the world-object-kid structure, to the "materials", bitmaps, the different flag states, what the dead flags do, even the vertex locations.  You can even call up another shape to appear if the object goes to a dead state. 

You could create an object from scratch, but for some reason I get errors when I do that.  I think it has to do with all of the flags that need to be in there, and materials definitions.  I haven't learned enough about it yet to know for sure.  But for now, I'm getting some interesting stuff done just with conversions of existing objects.

[Kanth]

very cool thanks Jinx. This gives a new toy to play with