Revisiting the wishlist with a 6 plane request

[Devil 505]

Arlo, the Ta 152 fills both a niche in the MA and a serious gap in events. The P. 108 marginally fills a niche in the MA for an Axis heavy bomber, but it's potential use in events is next to none. Comparing their inclusion in AH just because of low production runs is not as justifiable as you think it is.

As for every other plane you listed, including the SM. 79, they fill both niches in the MA and fills gaps for events. They should all be placed on the short list for inclusion - just after the Beau.

[ONTOS]

Love the Fiat G55, been pushing for that one a long time. The others are ok.

[Arlo]

... just after the Beau.

Might need to explain the niches for that, given the healthy and robust British plane set.

[Devil 505]

Think Hawker Typhoon, only 2.5 years earlier and in every theater of the war, with torpedoes.

It is the iconic British ground pounder.

[BuckShot]

It's funny how every plane wish thread turns into a discussion of why other planes (with separate wish threads) should be added first.

The beau: your buddy is dating a sexy girl, lets call her the mosquito. He wants to introduce you to her sister. Sounds good right? Maybe she's even sexier, like the Whirlwind... Nope! She ended up being a bigger, more clumsy, and dumpier version of the mosquito....the Beaufighter.

I just can't get fired up for that thing. I'd rather the Whirlwind if we're talking Brit twins.

[bozon]

It's funny how every plane wish thread turns into a discussion of why other planes (with separate wish threads) should be added first.

The beau: your buddy is dating a sexy girl, lets call her the mosquito. He wants to introduce you to her sister. Sounds good right? Maybe she's even sexier, like the Whirlwind... Nope! She ended up being a bigger, more clumsy, and dumpier version of the mosquito....the Beaufighter.

I just can't get fired up for that thing. I'd rather the Whirlwind if we're talking Brit twins.

Planes are "needed" for special events. In the MA there is always an alternative and new planes are not likely to bring anything new to the table (Exept the Mosquito XVIII tze-tze of course). Axis or Allied division does not matter for the MA either.

For special events what matters is filling "gaps" for specific role in specific side at a specific time frame. A plane like the Beau that served in numerous role, in all theatres, from the end of the battle of britain to VJ day has a very good potential for events.

The Ta152 is an outlier that should not be used as the rule for adding new planes. It is not much better than the Dora, does not add any special capabilities (no attack ordnance) except maybe extreme range, and its use in scenarios is limited to "last day of the luftwaffe" events. HTC added it - it's nice to have, adds flavor, but completely insignificant both in the MA and events.

[Lusche]

It is not much better than the Dora, does not add any special capabilities

If you stay low, no it's not much better.
If you use it where it shines, it's lightyears ahead of the Dora. And especially since the WEP changes in AHIII, I'd almost call it's high alt performance "special capabilities" way ahead of any other plane but the Komet.

[Arlo]

For special events what matters is filling "gaps" for specific role in specific side at a specific time frame. A plane like the Beau that served in numerous role, in all theatres, from the end of the battle of britain to VJ day has a very good potential for events.

You could substitute the word 'Mosquito' for 'Beau' and your statement remains just as factual (which makes the request redundant).

I have suggested an Italian late war fighter and an Italian bomber, which would bring the Italian plane set up to a whopping 4 (vs. the British plane set of 17). The Pe-108 suggestion would have worked well for MA (for any player that leaned toward Axis bombers and desired a heavy) and would have had some limited suitability for events. The SM.79 would have great potential for Mediterranean scenarios and crazy players in the MA (like me, I'll fly and die in the I-16 there). And if he German's thought the G.55 was "the best Axis fighter" then lets bring it on. It did see limited combat in regular units.

I have suggested a Japanese late war high performance fighter (specifically for its historic role of being Japan's best B-29 interceptor) and a late war Japanese dive bomber. Both of those were to enhance late war scenarios. It would increase the Japanese plane set to 13.

I have suggested the iconic German Ju-52 as an alternative to the Goon. Although the latter serves well in events for the U.S., the British, the Russians, and the Japanese, the Ju-52 would be a great addition for the Axis in events, especially considering its extreme versatility (read bomber option in AH).

I have suggested an early war USN torpedo bomber for early war events. The outcry against the TMB-3 in every early pac is just too loud to ignore.

There you have it. Perhaps the Beau would be a nice addition after these.

[lunatic1]

It's funny how every plane wish thread turns into a discussion of why other planes (with separate wish threads) should be added first.

The beau: your buddy is dating a sexy girl, lets call her the mosquito. He wants to introduce you to her sister. Sounds good right? Maybe she's even sexier, like the Whirlwind... Nope! She ended up being a bigger, more clumsy, and dumpier version of the mosquito....the Beaufighter.

I just can't get fired up for that thing. I'd rather the Whirlwind if we're talking Brit twins.

the Beau fighter has been on the wish lists and wished for longer than any plane for the last 4 years or more.
most people were all fired up about the ME410 when it came out for about 3 weeks-than pretty much became a hanger queen- until Torquila came along and showed what it can do with proper practice and training, almost all planes have potential

[lyric1]

Well, in that case .... neh, I'll stick with the Italian 4 engine model, as the request states. It did actually do some stuff (as much, if not more, than the Ta-152) and it's an actual heavy, which is obviously rare for the Axis. Did I day, it's Italian? Imagine that, an Italian bomber in the game. And an actual 4 engine heavy. 

(Image removed from quote.)

Bomb load

The P.108 had a large bomb bay which was capable of carrying either:

7 × 250 or 500 kg (550 or 1,100 lb) bombs.
34 × 100 kg/220 lb (true weight: 129 kg/284 lb).
38 × 50 kg/110 lb (true weight: 69 kg/152 lb) bombs.
The bomb bay was located centrally in the fuselage, and divided longitudinally into three sections which prevented it from carrying heavier bombs like the 800 kg (1,800 lb) types. This was a considerable limitation, whereas the SM.82 was capable of accommodating larger loads (being able to be used both in transport and the bomber role). In the torpedo-bomber configuration, three torpedoes could be carried under the belly and the wings.

Defensive armament

The defensive armament of the first P.108 series consisted of eight Breda-SAFAT machine guns. One Breda "O" 12.7 mm (.5 in) with 450 rounds was fitted in the nose, and a Breda "G9" 12.7 mm (.5 in) in a retractable ventral turret, with 400-450 rpg. In addition to these two fully hydraulically powered turrets, there were two 7.7 mm (.303 in) guns in the flanks, with 500 rpg. The wing armament consisted of two remote-controlled, hydraulically powered Breda "Z" turrets with 600 rpg in the outer-engine wing nacelles, linked to one of the two cupolas in the fuselage "hump", with an operator in each. The wing turrets represented the most innovative aspect of the P.108's technology.

Although considered a very advanced design, the operational suitability of the wing nacelle turret installations was questionable.

Operational history

P.108Bs were deployed in the Mediterranean and North African theatres and first saw action in an unsuccessful day mission against a destroyer on 6 June, releasing 10 160 kg (350 lb) bombs. The aircraft were effectively used a few weeks later, with a night bombing raid over Gibraltar on 28 June 1942.

Gibraltar

The first operation to Gibraltar was almost a disaster; out of five aircraft which set out from Decimomannu in Sardinia, one (MM.22004) was forced to return due to engine trouble while the other four bombed with 66 100 kg (220 lb) and six 250 kg (550 lb) bombs. Three of them, short of fuel, were forced to land in Spain, two of which (MM.22001 and 22005) crashed or suffered some damage in forced landings. The third (MM.22007) landed in Majorca, a former Italian base in the Spanish Civil War, and thanks to the Spanish pro-Axis policy was quickly refueled and took off from Palma de Majorca for Italy. The two others remained in Spain: MM.22001 crashed on a beach when it was approaching Valencia airport and was written off, MM.22005 suffered minor damage and was stored at San Javier air base but was repaired and tested by the Spanish Air Force.[13] Several other missions were launched until October, which resulted in some damage and further losses. An attempt to change to SM.82s was an expedient (as was the P.108, expecting more from the future P.133).

For a chronology, there were sorties to Gibraltar (without the endurance problems that dogged the first mission), during the night of 3 July (MM.22601 failed to return), 24 September (MM22004 and 22603), 20 October (MM.22002 (written off during an emergency landing after engine failure on takeoff), MM.22004, 22006 and 22007) and 21 October (MM.22602, destroyed during an emergency landing at Bône in Algeria, and two other P.108s), when the "peak" was reached.[14] Each of these missions, involving one to four aircraft (15 sorties in total), was unsuccessful and resulted in around 33% losses. The results were poor, with one Hudson and some artillery positions destroyed on the ground in the first "big" mission and further unspecified damage in the others, despite intensive long-range mission crew training between 3 July and September. On 28 October, MM22007 force-landed in Algeria on its third sortie, making in total at least 16 sorties with one aircraft missing, two lost in Spain, two lost in Algeria and one lost in Italy.

Algeria and Africa

Following the Allied invasion of French North Africa, codenamed "Operation Torch", more losses were sustained when these aircraft flew missions over Algeria and other African targets. The Allies had over 160 warships and 250 merchant ships in the region. The Luftwaffe had 1,068 aircraft in the II and X. Fliegerkorps, the Regia had 285 aircraft in Sardinia of which 115 were torpedo-bombers. At least three were downed over Africa in this series of raids, for the most part claimed by Beaufighters. Nonetheless, in Algeria they struck targets in Bône (now called Annaba), Algiers, Blinda, Philippeville (now called Skikda), Maison Blanche and Oran.

Some ships were damaged by P.108s in the latter and Algerian raids and over other targets they destroyed some aircraft. These bombers were the only ones capable of flying the 2,000 km (1,240 mi) to Oran. The 274 Squadriglia had only eight P.108s and with them performed only 28 sorties in eight night missions, during a whole month. Three were shot down by night fighters, which on only one occasion were repelled by the wing turrets. Two P.108s were shot down by 153 Sqn Beaufighters in the attack over Algeria's port and the last of these missions was flown on 20 January. Serviceability dropped to one or two aircraft and so with the need for refurbishment, the P.108s returned to the mainland.

Sicily

The final action took place over Sicily, when the 274ma was reinforced to a total of eight. They flew 12 sorties against the invasion force between 11 and 22 July. Losses included two aircraft destroyed and two others badly damaged, mainly by Beaufighter and Mosquito night fighters. Only one ship was damaged - this closed the career of 274ma and the P.108B.

The last of the 24 P.108Bs ordered was delivered in August. Of these aircraft, six were lost to enemy action (three over Algeria, two over Sicily and perhaps one over Spain), four to accidents (including the one involving Bruno Mussolini) and three to forced landings (one in Algeria and two over Spain).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.108

There you have it. Not the shiniest of careers but it'll likely have a better one in both the MA and in Mediterranean scenarios. AHIII isn't an actual re-enactment.

[Volron]

Arlo, you forgot the Ki-45.

[Karnak]

I have suggested a Japanese late war high performance fighter (specifically for its historic role of being Japan's best B-29 interceptor) and a late war Japanese dive bomber. Both of those were to enhance late war scenarios. It would increase the Japanese plane set to 13.

Ki-100 is not high performance, and was not the best B-29 interceptor.  What it was, that other Japanese planes built at that time were not, is reliable.

The J2M 'Jack' Raiden was the best B-29 interceptor.

[Arlo]

Ki-100 is not high performance, and was not the best B-29 interceptor.  What it was, that other Japanese planes built at that time were not, is reliable.

The J2M 'Jack' Raiden was the best B-29 interceptor.

While the Raiden was superior in B-29 interception, the K-100 was superior overall. So lets change my rationale to overall performance.

"The Ki-100 made its combat debut on the night of 9 March 1945[7] and suffered its first loss on 7 April 1945, when a Ki-100 flown by Master Sergeant Yasuo Hiema of the 18th Sentai was shot down by a B-29 after "attacking the formation again and again".[7][N 1] Allied aircrews soon realised that they were facing a formidable new fighter[12] Although far fewer Ki-100s were available than the Ki-84s, it was considered one of the most important fighters in the inventory. However, during interception of the high-flying B-29s (the B-29 raids soon became low-level missions) the new Japanese fighters struggled as the Ha-112-II engine's performance decreased at high altitudes. The most effective way to attack the Superfortress was by making very dangerous head-on attacks, with the fighter hanging its approach path as it neared the bomber. A failure while attempting this was deadly, because of the concentration of defensive fire from the bombers. In this type of combat, the Navy's Mitsubishi J2M Raiden was superior.[13]

During March and April 1945 experienced instructors from the Akeno Army Flying School flew the Ki-100 in extensive tests against the Ki-84, which was considered to be the best of the JAAF fighters then in operational service. Their conclusions were that, given pilots of equal experience, the Ki-100 would always win in combat.[4] From Mid-April, Major Yasuhiko Kuroe, a highly experienced combat veteran was placed in charge of a "flying circus" made up of captured Allied aircraft, including a Mustang which had been captured in China. This "circus" travelled to various operational fighter bases throughout Japan and was used to train pilots in the best ways to combat enemy aircraft.

On 25 July 1945, 18 Ki-100 fighters from 244th Sentai encountered 10 Hellcats of the light aircraft carrier USS Belleau Wood's Fighter Squadron 31 (VF-31) in an air battle where the Ki-100 pilots claimed 12 victories with only two losses. Claims and counter-claims regarding the true results still arise around this action. The American claims were two Hellcats and two Ki-100s, including Major Tsutae Obara's Ki-100 and Ensign Edwin White's Hellcat which collided, killing both pilots.[14] USN records for 25 July 1945 reflect the loss of two aircraft, both F6F-5's, by VF-31, #78228, piloted by ENS Edwin R. White and #77489, piloted by ENS Herbert L. Law[15]

After the bombing of the Kagamigahara plant and the slow deliveries of components by the satellite plants, production rates of the Ki-100 began to fall more and more, and in the period between May and July, only 12 units were delivered. Finally, production ended due to the bombing, with only 118 units of the Army Type-5 Fighter Model 1b delivered.

The last loss of a Ki-100 occurred on 14 August 1945, a day before the surrender of Japan, when Sergeant Major Fumihiko Tamagake of the 244th Sentai was shot down by a Mustang.[11]

An overall assessment of the effectiveness of the Ki-100 rated it highly in agility, and a well-handled Ki-100 was able to outmanoeuvre any American fighter, including the formidable P-51D Mustangs and the P-47N Thunderbolts which were escorting the B-29 raids over Japan by that time, and was comparable in speed, especially at medium altitudes. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Ki-100 was a deadly opponent; the Ki-100 and the Army's Ki-84 and the Navy's Kawanishi N1K-J were the only Japanese fighters able to defeat the latest Allied types.[16]"

Francillon, René J. Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War. London: Putnam, 2nd edition, 1979. ISBN 0-370-30251-6

Picarella, Giuseppe. "Database: Kawasaki Ki-100. Article, scale drawings and cutaway." Aeroplane magazine, Volume 33, No 11, Issue No 391, November 2005. London: IPC Media Ltd.

Sakaida, Henry. Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-45. Botley, Oxford, UK: Osprey Publishing, 1997. ISBN 1-85532-529-2

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I would still add it before the Beau. 

[nrshida]

Too bad HTC turns new aircraft out so slowly that the players have to start with the 'this is good for the game' or 'this one was used more in combat' informal fallacies. Nothing wrong with proposing personal favourites.


"During March and April 1945 experienced instructors from the Akeno Army Flying School flew the Ki-100 in extensive tests against the Ki-84, which was considered to be the best of the JAAF fighters then in operational service. Their conclusions were that, given pilots of equal experience, the Ki-100 would always win in combat".

It's hard to see how, unless Kawasaki were channelling Lockheed-Martin. Higher wing-loading, inferior flaps, lower power-loading. I do like it, I've touched the only survivor, but I'd also rather have other things like the Whirlwind - just more interesting to me. Plus it would be better for the game and saw more combat.

[Volron]

Too bad most folks seem to think they should be pumping out planes and things like they do in War Thunder.