Author Topic: How Long does a Terrain take?  (Read 1967 times)

Offline bustr

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2018, 03:03:08 PM »
I've been spending some time reading at a website dedicated to professional level builders for first person shooter games. So far I cannot find any for air and tank combat simms. FPS game companies have level(terrain) building teams and it still takes months for a "team" to produce a ready for prime time level. And their production tools are purpose designed for teams of techs to work on the same project producing different aspects of it from a master project plan. The site has web casts and articles from industry professionals who try to give tips on how to get through the time required. One point blank stated you have to develop the habit of putting a few hours every day into your project or you will never get very far at any given time. I don't have to install as many active objects and object structures as an FPS level design, And Hitech has taken care of the lighting engine for me. I'm just building a physical world 100x larger than many of the FPS levels which operate on a different scale of focus than AH3 but, with the same or more objects in a smaller space.

As far as I can tell other air and tank combat games use the two side protagonist model and pull in geo maps to create their terrains how ever large or small. Kind of like our AvA, FSO, and special events WW2 scenarios. We are the only combat simm that uses a three side protagonist model on such a vast scale and as far as I can tell. GV spawns and micro combat design has not been high on anyone's priorities until Greebo produced the AH2 craterMA and located the towns and GV spawns some distance from feilds as a strategy choice to separate the two combat types a bit. And a limitation in the AH2 terrain polygon mesh kept him from producing the tank combat crater he really wanted to put in the center. What we have in AH3 is more like he originally envisioned if I remember a conversation we had during the beta testing. Many of our AH2 best spawn and GV micro terrain combat areas were pretty much fortuitous boo boos. But, really fortuitous.... :O

I also watched a 2017 film from an IL2 version(maybe the dev team) where they have player manned tanks and a duel between a lone T34 and a Ju87-G2. Twelve hits with 37mm AP and the T34 was not destroyed. I noticed they had bridge objects the tanks can drive over rivers in the film. Gaijin makes extensive use of destroyed static tanks and convoys set persistent on roads, along with quad 20mm auto guns that have static or AI German crew on them. And the airfields appear to have AI personnel walking around. They probably have the same max number of active players limit they always have to offset the object and detail debt. Wonder what that FPS hit would be in our MA....even in AH3 everyone's FPS starts grinding down when three or more C47 kick out troops at the same time in the air over a town. Makes me wonder what wwIIonline is sacrificing to have so many troops running around with active tanks and planes in their battles. It looks like they are using as dense of trees and clutter as we use. But, it's our planes that really run into problems in small areas with a large number of active objects and passive objects.

From watching tank combat videos from all of our competitors, our default density of trees and bushes on our terrain tiles, or how we implement them is degrees thicker than other games. In the other games there are ample locations to hide and ambush, there terrains were pulled in from geo maps but, the open spaces and country side at the same time is full of open space that a tanker can see for miles. And the occurrence of types of rolling hills stands out from game to game. Fortunately I tested texturing patterns of 1x1 mile squares to rapidly produce different sizes of AH3 rolling hills.

There are times on this current terrain that the bulldozer tool would work better by letting me pull a line, then pull it into curves, then trigger it to cut or raise it's furrows. It pulls only a straight line. But, once you discover how to texture a 1x1mile square, it's pretty fast creating rolling hillock landscape. Or you go nutz with a tiny brush and the raise hill tool.....first you paint dots, then you use the raise hill tool and click on the center of each dot.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline captain1ma

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2018, 08:14:50 PM »
or you could just use a real life terrain like I do. I grab places on earth and make them into something that's tank friendly. if you use the right tile set, the trees are not too bad and you have plenty of places to hide.

Offline bustr

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2018, 10:51:58 PM »
It don't scale for the MA and three sided conflicts, while creating one side that sucks and one side that has terrain advantages. Very rarely does the land mass accommodate setting feilds less than 25 miles which eats peoples time by forcing them to live in transit more than engaging in activity. While you are at it, where is your MA terrain? They are a bit different than a two side terrain pulled in with Artik's geo map program if you are making an attempt to shorten the transit times to account for 150+ customers on 625,000sq miles. So that leaves having to create 6x6 micro combat terrain for tanks at roughly 30 feilds per country to be fair to them. Even with a terrain auto generated from Artik's program, if you just slap in GV spawns and some tile painting becasue you grabbed some place on earth, you are doing the MA customers no favors while duplicating the same MA builders mistakes from AH2.

So build an MA terrain instead of taking a gratuitous drive by shot.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline JimmyC

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2018, 10:07:29 PM »
Are you saying we should make a map?
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Offline 100Coogn

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2018, 10:10:22 PM »
Are you saying we should make a map?

 :rofl  Probably so.  :rofl

Coogan
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From Wiley: If you're hitting them after they drop, that's not defense, that is revenge.
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Offline JimmyC

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2018, 11:01:26 PM »
Thanks...i was just unsure if I could comment with out having a map in the pipeline..
If I make a map I have a valid input..
Now where are my crayons...i might just get started..and join the upper echelons of AH.


Please don't reply unless you also have  cartographic sensibilities. We have no time for time wasters.

CO 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."

Offline 100Coogn

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2018, 11:15:39 PM »
I've been spending some time reading at a website dedicated to professional level builders for first person shooter games. So far I cannot find any for air and tank combat simms. FPS game companies have level(terrain) building teams and it still takes months for a "team" to produce a ready for prime time level. And their production tools are purpose designed for teams of techs to work on the same project producing different aspects of it from a master project plan. The site has web casts and articles from industry professionals who try to give tips on how to get through the time required. One point blank stated you have to develop the habit of putting a few hours every day into your project or you will never get very far at any given time. I don't have to install as many active objects and object structures as an FPS level design, And Hitech has taken care of the lighting engine for me. I'm just building a physical world 100x larger than many of the FPS levels which operate on a different scale of focus than AH3 but, with the same or more objects in a smaller space.

As far as I can tell other air and tank combat games use the two side protagonist model and pull in geo maps to create their terrains how ever large or small. Kind of like our AvA, FSO, and special events WW2 scenarios. We are the only combat simm that uses a three side protagonist model on such a vast scale and as far as I can tell. GV spawns and micro combat design has not been high on anyone's priorities until Greebo produced the AH2 craterMA and located the towns and GV spawns some distance from feilds as a strategy choice to separate the two combat types a bit. And a limitation in the AH2 terrain polygon mesh kept him from producing the tank combat crater he really wanted to put in the center. What we have in AH3 is more like he originally envisioned if I remember a conversation we had during the beta testing. Many of our AH2 best spawn and GV micro terrain combat areas were pretty much fortuitous boo boos. But, really fortuitous.... :O

I also watched a 2017 film from an IL2 version(maybe the dev team) where they have player manned tanks and a duel between a lone T34 and a Ju87-G2. Twelve hits with 37mm AP and the T34 was not destroyed. I noticed they had bridge objects the tanks can drive over rivers in the film. Gaijin makes extensive use of destroyed static tanks and convoys set persistent on roads, along with quad 20mm auto guns that have static or AI German crew on them. And the airfields appear to have AI personnel walking around. They probably have the same max number of active players limit they always have to offset the object and detail debt. Wonder what that FPS hit would be in our MA....even in AH3 everyone's FPS starts grinding down when three or more C47 kick out troops at the same time in the air over a town. Makes me wonder what wwIIonline is sacrificing to have so many troops running around with active tanks and planes in their battles. It looks like they are using as dense of trees and clutter as we use. But, it's our planes that really run into problems in small areas with a large number of active objects and passive objects.

From watching tank combat videos from all of our competitors, our default density of trees and bushes on our terrain tiles, or how we implement them is degrees thicker than other games. In the other games there are ample locations to hide and ambush, there terrains were pulled in from geo maps but, the open spaces and country side at the same time is full of open space that a tanker can see for miles. And the occurrence of types of rolling hills stands out from game to game. Fortunately I tested texturing patterns of 1x1 mile squares to rapidly produce different sizes of AH3 rolling hills.

There are times on this current terrain that the bulldozer tool would work better by letting me pull a line, then pull it into curves, then trigger it to cut or raise it's furrows. It pulls only a straight line. But, once you discover how to texture a 1x1mile square, it's pretty fast creating rolling hillock landscape. Or you go nutz with a tiny brush and the raise hill tool.....first you paint dots, then you use the raise hill tool and click on the center of each dot.



Would ya please?

Coogan
Quote
From Wiley: If you're hitting them after they drop, that's not defense, that is revenge.
Game Id's:
AHIII: Coogan
RDR2: Coogan_Bear
MSFS-2020: Coogan Bear

Offline bustr

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2018, 06:42:54 PM »
Coogan I can't help it if you no longer can or want to read more than 140 words at a shot on the Internet.

And why can't you and Jimmy build your own terrains? The terrain editor is as easy as using a smart phone..... Unless all of this is you two making gratuitous drive by ad hominems becasue you have made this personal while sliding in under the rule#s like so many vitrol each other in this forums when they don't like each other. Or are you trying to get under the rule#'s to see if you can goad Skuzzy into locking this post? Seems like that is the only reason for the two of you to continue posting. Al I have been doing is posting about a terrain I'm building.

I'm already back in the primary documentation post for this terrain in the terrain editor forum by the way. My smart phone needs help on a geo feature.     
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline captain1ma

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2018, 10:20:34 PM »
It don't scale for the MA and three sided conflicts, while creating one side that sucks and one side that has terrain advantages. Very rarely does the land mass accommodate setting feilds less than 25 miles which eats peoples time by forcing them to live in transit more than engaging in activity. While you are at it, where is your MA terrain? They are a bit different than a two side terrain pulled in with Artik's geo map program if you are making an attempt to shorten the transit times to account for 150+ customers on 625,000sq miles. So that leaves having to create 6x6 micro combat terrain for tanks at roughly 30 feilds per country to be fair to them. Even with a terrain auto generated from Artik's program, if you just slap in GV spawns and some tile painting becasue you grabbed some place on earth, you are doing the MA customers no favors while duplicating the same MA builders mistakes from AH2.

So build an MA terrain instead of taking a gratuitous drive by shot.
Well there were a few really good ah2 terrains that looked like some place on earth and were 3 sides. They always seemed more realistic to me and my squad and some of my friends. And while your pin wheel terrains work and are acceptable, they just don't look like a real place. To me it's about looking at a map that looks like a real place. As someone who uses maps and charts for a living, it's more of a observation/comment rather then a gratuitous snipe as you so eloquently put it. My terrains are not 3 sided, yours are. Keep up the good work. I'm glad people like them.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Offline 100Coogn

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2018, 10:34:52 PM »
Coogan I can't help it if you no longer can or want to read more than 140 words at a shot on the Internet.

And why can't you and Jimmy build your own terrains? The terrain editor is as easy as using a smart phone..... Unless all of this is you two making gratuitous drive by ad hominems becasue you have made this personal while sliding in under the rule#s like so many vitrol each other in this forums when they don't like each other. Or are you trying to get under the rule#'s to see if you can goad Skuzzy into locking this post? Seems like that is the only reason for the two of you to continue posting. Al I have been doing is posting about a terrain I'm building.

I'm already back in the primary documentation post for this terrain in the terrain editor forum by the way. My smart phone needs help on a geo feature.     

 :rofl 

This is about the third time you have threatened people with Rule#'s in your posts in hopes to get a thread locked, or a post deleted simply because someone may have a different opinion than yours.
Nobody has attacked you, but you sure do get defensive when anyone suggests a better idea than you have for your terrains.
I would suggest to not take things so personally.

Coogan

Quote
From Wiley: If you're hitting them after they drop, that's not defense, that is revenge.
Game Id's:
AHIII: Coogan
RDR2: Coogan_Bear
MSFS-2020: Coogan Bear

Offline bustr

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2018, 02:30:38 PM »
No Coogan you have become adept at skirting them while indulging your need to abuse people when you are not happy about an interaction with them.


It's amazing how much space on a terrain is empty space that never gets played in. Someone AFK or bombers on the way to hit the HQ may see it but, if there are no bases in that area, players won't go there. Since my first terrain I've been solving for the low numbers problem in a number of ways. One has been to set down airfields at the minimum distance of 19 miles. That gets players at each other in planes a lot faster so RTB and coming back is shorter. With 150 players average for the time being, it is a waste of their play time to make them spend the evening in transit like the old maps forced on everyone by the airfields on average 1-2 sectors apart. Some of that was due to trying to slow down the hoards.


This third terrain now has all the airfields condensed together like I did with Oceania except on Oceania the ocean slots between islands had a number of 1 sector separations. That ended up with feilds spaced farther out in island blocks where the bases were 19 miles. That shorter distance on islands facilitated quicker turn around along with the slots that were 19 miles wide.

Here is what about 27 feilds per country looks like condensed to 19 miles as the maximum separation. It's about a 7x7 sector combat area. Over the last two terrains as I compressed distances the air combat players were spending more time fighting versus in transit. And for LiLMak, I don't know what to do to get them to come up and fight you, at least you don't have to fly as far to find people even if they run away from you.





This makes for a lot of empty space I still have to fill with geo features.





And just becasue it will probably be a small number of players who will ever see any of this work close up.





bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline 100Coogn

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2018, 02:42:52 PM »
No Coogan you have become adept at skirting them while indulging your need to abuse people when you are not happy about an interaction with them.


It's amazing how much space on a terrain is empty space that never gets played in. Someone AFK or bombers on the way to hit the HQ may see it but, if there are no bases in that area, players won't go there. Since my first terrain I've been solving for the low numbers problem in a number of ways. One has been to set down airfields at the minimum distance of 19 miles. That gets players at each other in planes a lot faster so RTB and coming back is shorter. With 150 players average for the time being, it is a waste of their play time to make them spend the evening in transit like the old maps forced on everyone by the airfields on average 1-2 sectors apart. Some of that was due to trying to slow down the hoards.


This third terrain now has all the airfields condensed together like I did with Oceania except on Oceania the ocean slots between islands had a number of 1 sector separations. That ended up with feilds spaced farther out in island blocks where the bases were 19 miles. That shorter distance on islands facilitated quicker turn around along with the slots that were 19 miles wide.

Here is what about 27 feilds per country looks like condensed to 19 miles as the maximum separation. It's about a 7x7 sector combat area. Over the last two terrains as I compressed distances the air combat players were spending more time fighting versus in transit. And for LiLMak, I don't know what to do to get them to come up and fight you, at least you don't have to fly as far to find people even if they run away from you.


(Image removed from quote.)


This makes for a lot of empty space I still have to fill with geo features.


(Image removed from quote.)


And just becasue it will probably be a small number of players who will ever see any of this work close up.


(Image removed from quote.)


(Image removed from quote.)

umm, ok?

Coogan
Quote
From Wiley: If you're hitting them after they drop, that's not defense, that is revenge.
Game Id's:
AHIII: Coogan
RDR2: Coogan_Bear
MSFS-2020: Coogan Bear

Offline Devil 505

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2018, 10:55:53 PM »
Looking good, Bustr. Keep it up.
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Offline bustr

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2018, 02:19:56 PM »
Sometimes it's not until you start putting the paint down for the finished area that you realize how you were going to do something later will have to be done differently than you planned. That big open area of gray around that field place holder in the dark green area and raising the hills next to those two streams. Some long range tank sinper types are going to be happy. The dotted lines are ridge spines and the light tan color is 25ft. So I will be raising ridges on both sides of streams all over the map. That gray area is open becasue I don't know if I will put a town next to the airfield or not. Until you pull up the ground around where you will place a field and paint it, you don't know euphemistically about the lay of the land in relationship to placing a town or placing GV spawns. Pretty much the locations of the feilds dictate the lay of the land becasue of my mapped blue print but, you need the land laid so you can get up close and see how things will go into those spaces.

If Hitech is going to have us put in a rail and road supply system after that post with pictures he showed, I hope he releases that with instructions soon so I can shoe horn them into this terrain.


bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline popeye

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Re: How Long does a Terrain take?
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2018, 02:34:10 PM »

If Hitech is going to have us put in a rail and road supply system after that post with pictures he showed, I hope he releases that with instructions soon so I can shoe horn them into this terrain.


 :D
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