1/2 winged planes

[FLS]

Try flying with half a wing, then get back to us.

[Wiley]

Wiley I am not gonna quote all your statements but,

Again I am no engineer of any kind, didn't really do well in math or science in school.  I am only saying COMMON since says a a 1/2 wing degrotaed plane can not out run three planes that have zero damage to there planes structure. You and buster act like I said something horrible about the game and the programming of the game. It's not like I a screaming and hollering threatening to cancel my account over the issue.  I do t program games or code games hell its taking me two days to get a ssd installed and programmed in my computer.
I am saying that it's ar arcadic and cheesy to get 1/2 a wing off a plane and they out run you back to there base. I was in tank town last night in a spit and I got 1/2 my wing shot and I exited the fights with the rooks (3) of them in the air and landed my kills.
Let's do a a very basic experiment. Take two identical model airplanes. Let's say  F4uds. Make one whole and the other has a damaged wing either wing is fine for what I am thinking. Give both planes to a 6yr old (just for you V). Tell him to play fighter planes with them. I guarantee the whole plane shoots down the damaged wing plane every time. Now this don't prove any forces or lift vectors or any scientific evidence other than even a child will realize that a damaged plane will not be a formidable component.
My only thing for the wish was a little more performance loss. Again I do t think the plane should fall out of the sky.  I also do t think a 1/2 winged plane should out run a undamaged plane.  I do t think we need wind tunnel test and joules performance tests and real world planes with 1/2 tests. Maybe just a lil common sense.

The only problem I have is with your claim.  Your claim is that a plane missing half a wing will go significantly slower than one that is not. The only thing about that situation that will affect top speed is drag.  That drag is going to come from the hollow hole at the end of the broken part of the wing, and it will be some number.

Now, that drag coming from that hole will be offset by the amount of drag that the missing portion of wing would have produced back before the wing was damaged so it is not going to be a straight addition. It is going to be the difference between the original drag of the relatively large section of the wing that had been going through the air and providing lift. Do you know how much drag that much surface area getting pulled through air and providing lift causes? Me either, but I would be surprised if it is not fairly significant compared to a ragged hole that most likely broke off near one of the supports so it isn't completely hollow.  I also bet HT could tell you reasonably accurately within the sim how much drag that part of the wing causes. The broken tip likely is fudged a bit because not a lot of opportunities to put a warbird with a shot off wing in a wind tunnel occur these days.

I am reasonably certain though the broken tip would cause more so on that we agree.

Then comes the yaw that asymmetrical drag is going to create on that plane. That will pull the plane to that side until the air going over the opposite side of the fuselage and the rudder the pilot may need to apply reaches equilibrium. This will add drag as well.

All that above means there will be some amount of drag added to the plane that will slow it down. Which brings us to the only question that matters in this situation: By how much?

Then, as has been stated up thread, 9 times out of ten the plane goes into a dive which will allow it to gain speed past where the engine could maintain it.

Does the game accurately reflect the top speed difference that would occur in that condition?  Does it change top speed when the wing is gone at all?  Do you even know the answers to those two questions?  And then there is the question of how much it should be in the real world, and are the two different?

All you have is an anecdote of a fast plane going into a dive with half a wing and at least temporarily going faster than pursuing planes of indeterminate type.  But your com-wait, your COMMON sense tells you that damaged plane should be slower so somebody needs to justify it to you.

I am disinclined to post another bustresque wall of text about the turning but the short version is turning is a function of lift. Do you know how much lift that plane has, how much is lost by losing that wing tip and how much is required to make the turn?  Without those 3 things, it's all meaningless.

Wiley.

[colmbo]

ar arcadic and cheesy to get 1/2 a wing off a plane and they out run you back to there base.

I doubt it happened as you say.  It is simply too difficult to fly with one wing to be able to do any serious maneuvering.  You might dive for speed to regain control but if you pull any G the airplane rolls toward the stub wing, pull to hard and the roll can't be countered.  A one wing airplane just isn't going to be a serious threat.

[Wiley]

I doubt it happened as you say.  It is simply too difficult to fly with one wing to be able to do any serious maneuvering.  You might dive for speed to regain control but if you pull any G the airplane rolls toward the stub wing, pull to hard and the roll can't be countered.  A one wing airplane just isn't going to be a serious threat.

A Ki84 at flaps speed might be able to maneuver to get guns on if the other guy did the wrong thing. I have been in desperate situations with missing wing tips where I could vaguely maneuver at low speeds in an f4u and the Ki. But it would require the opponent to go to the right spot.

Wiley.

[colmbo]

A Ki84 at flaps speed might be able to maneuver to get guns on if the other guy did the wrong thing. I have been in desperate situations with missing wing tips where I could vaguely maneuver at low speeds in an f4u and the Ki. But it would require the opponent to go to the right spot.

Wiley.

Anyone that lets a one wing airplane shoot them down needs to sell their HOTAS gear and take up solitaire.

[Wiley]

Just saying it's possible.    Same when people have gotten greedy when I was dead stick and common sense would dictate I should be dead. The only thing that matters is physics.

Wiley.

[100Coogn]

Anyone that lets a one wing airplane shoot them down needs to sell their HOTAS gear and take up solitaire.

 

Coogan

[atlau]

A single wing plane WILL fly slower simply due to the added drag required to keep it flying straight.

How much so is the interesting question.

[100Coogn]

I kinda like the point/counter-point of this discussion.
Especially Wiley & Vraciu. They are throwing punches back and forth, but both are making quite valid statements.  (in quite a mature way should I add)
Good reading.  Please proceed.

  To you both.

Coogan 

[flippz]

The only problem I have is with your claim.  Your claim is that a plane missing half a wing will go significantly slower than one that is not. The only thing about that situation that will affect top speed is drag.  That drag is going to come from the hollow hole at the end of the broken part of the wing, and it will be some number.

Now, that drag coming from that hole will be offset by the amount of drag that the missing portion of wing would have produced back before the wing was damaged so it is not going to be a straight addition. It is going to be the difference between the original drag of the relatively large section of the wing that had been going through the air and providing lift. Do you know how much drag that much surface area getting pulled through air and providing lift causes? Me either, but I would be surprised if it is not fairly significant compared to a ragged hole that most likely broke off near one of the supports so it isn't completely hollow.  I also bet HT could tell you reasonably accurately within the sim how much drag that part of the wing causes. The broken tip likely is fudged a bit because not a lot of opportunities to put a warbird with a shot off wing in a wind tunnel occur these days.

I am reasonably certain though the broken tip would cause more so on that we agree.

Then comes the yaw that asymmetrical drag is going to create on that plane. That will pull the plane to that side until the air going over the opposite side of the fuselage and the rudder the pilot may need to apply reaches equilibrium. This will add drag as well.

All that above means there will be some amount of drag added to the plane that will slow it down. Which brings us to the only question that matters in this situation: By how much?

Then, as has been stated up thread, 9 times out of ten the plane goes into a dive which will allow it to gain speed past where the engine could maintain it.

Does the game accurately reflect the top speed difference that would occur in that condition?  Does it change top speed when the wing is gone at all?  Do you even know the answers to those two questions?  And then there is the question of how much it should be in the real world, and are the two different?

All you have is an anecdote of a fast plane going into a dive with half a wing and at least temporarily going faster than pursuing planes of indeterminate type.  But your com-wait, your COMMON sense tells you that damaged plane should be slower so somebody needs to justify it to you.

I am disinclined to post another bustresque wall of text about the turning but the short version is turning is a function of lift. Do you know how much lift that plane has, how much is lost by losing that wing tip and how much is required to make the turn?  Without those 3 things, it's all meaningless.

Wiley.

Damn man. Didn’t mean to piss you off. Glad I didn’t tell you I wished for the Easter bunny to visit the house a few weeks ago. My kids would have been sorely disappointed.
No one knows the drag of an airplane winging breaking off, because no two planes are gonna break the same each time.  I am gonna do a lil bustring research and put a lil evidence of my WISH. I will also find those films Monday night and post them up I been pretty busy today and evidently don’t put as much into someone’s else’s wish as you guys.  But I can assure there is not a single account of a plane being half winged and out running another plane that was all ready in a fight with it with “like speed and alt”.  But I will get back with you.

[flippz]

I doubt it happened as you say.  It is simply too difficult to fly with one wing to be able to do any serious maneuvering.  You might dive for speed to regain control but if you pull any G the airplane rolls toward the stub wing, pull to hard and the roll can't be countered.  A one wing airplane just isn't going to be a serious threat.

Will post videos.

[Wiley]

Damn man. Didn’t mean to piss you off. Glad I didn’t tell you I wished for the Easter bunny to visit the house a few weeks ago. My kids would have been sorely disappointed.

This isn't pissed off.  This is just pointing out you're asking for something you don't understand, based on information you don't have, and want it changed based on an anecdote you don't understand and can't explain.

No one knows the drag of an airplane winging breaking off, because no two planes are gonna break the same each time.

Right, but being that this is a video game, concessions need to be made.  There'd be a "broken wing" amount of drag.  There already seemingly is a "broken wing" amount of drag.  What do you have to say it's wrong?  You can't describe what "right" is, you can't describe what it's doing now.  And you claim it's unrealistic when you can't describe what realistic is or what it's doing now.

  I am gonna do a lil bustring research and put a lil evidence of my WISH.

Your WISH to change a game that's based on an attempt at realism and some fairly significant amounts of math and calculation, but that doesn't matter because of your COMMON sense.

I will also find those films Monday night and post them up I been pretty busy today and evidently don’t put as much into someone’s else’s wish as you guys.  But I can assure there is not a single account of a plane being half winged and out running another plane that was all ready in a fight with it with “like speed and alt”.  But I will get back with you.

There's not much being put into it, it's just more common sense, and I type fast.

Wiley.

[save]

Anyone that lets a one wing airplane shoot them down needs to sell their HOTAS gear and take up solitaire.

Unless they are bombers, agreed. A half vinged 190 just keep on going for them buffs, and "just" makes up for a smaller target  .

[Drano]

In the 38 if I'm heading uphill and can  get slow or are slow enough to get flaps out when the wingtip comes off I can get some measure of control. Gotta be quick on the trim too. Not enough to fight anybody but enough to maybe make it back to land and that's all. Heading downhill or too fast - - forget about it. Too much  bank in the wrong direction--same thing. Won't be able to stop the roll and once the nose drops you're picking up speed. No bueno. Ain't enough trim or cross controlling to get straight again.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

[Wiley]

In the 38 if I'm heading uphill and can  get slow or are slow enough to get flaps out when the wingtip comes off I can get some measure of control. Gotta be quick on the trim too. Not enough to fight anybody but enough to maybe make it back to land and that's all. Heading downhill or too fast - - forget about it. Too much  bank in the wrong direction--same thing. Won't be able to stop the roll and once the nose drops you're picking up speed. No bueno. Ain't enough trim or cross controlling to get straight again.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

Never really thought about it, but do 38s have a 2 part wingtip to lose like other planes?  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there flaps inside the engine pod, and when you lose a wing(tip) you just lose what's outside the engine?  Or is there a condition where there's a stub outside the engine remaining as well?

I don't fly 38s much and can't recall a wingtip shooting offhand.  In everything though, you definitely need ALL the trim toward the long wing to keep in the air.  In a 190/Ta I generally find I need all the trim, and about 1/3 to 1/2 deflection on my stick to maintain something resembling level flight.  I also generally find mid-high speed works best to stay in control, I seem to recall getting into dives that were too fast to pull out of as the asymmetrical lift just caused it to roll regardless of aileron input on many occasions.

190s can do relatively well with a wingtip shot off.  I actually had a kill in an A8 a few seconds after I lost both wingtips (pulled too hard out of a dive) and the guy was running down a friendly in front of me as I was leveling out to limp home.  I still had rudder and elevator and he pretty much flew into my gunsite.  If I remember right I couldn't keep it together when I got slow enough to land though.

I can't recall ever thinking about making another pass on a bomber when I was missing a wingtip as Save describes though, just because I usually wind up below them after a pass and climbing back up to make a decent pass would take too long if it is even possible, it just never occurred to me to try.  A coalt pass would be  a weak, slow side or rear shot which is just suicide so I never bothered.

Wiley.