Author Topic: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic  (Read 23751 times)

Offline perdue3

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #150 on: August 02, 2018, 02:41:13 AM »
I am really not fervent about any of this. Brooke and the designers have asked for opinions and I have given mine. Whether or not they do what we ask is not my issue. We are here to give them our opinions and our knowledge and hope that they apply it well.

I have given my opinion on the fighter balance. I stand by it still yet. 8 Spit IX's has a greater change than you think because Spits are easy to find pilots for. Not to mention they will own the skies where 190's do not have an advantage. If they ever find themselves alone with 190's, they will outnumber them. I suppose my point is that 8 Spit IX's do not equal 6 Spit VIII's.
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Offline perdue3

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #151 on: August 02, 2018, 02:43:48 AM »
But, if it goes through as is, whatever. I'll be there in a 190 causing genuine despair for the Allies.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #152 on: August 02, 2018, 03:25:40 AM »
Wow, so much agitation over Spitfires.

Please everyone, take a quick survey here:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,393948.0.html

Offline Brooke

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #153 on: August 02, 2018, 05:22:41 AM »
Might be useful to go into more details on what this topic is and how it works.

---- The old way ----

Prior to recent times, scenarios were designed in private by the CM team.  There was no public input.  Once the writeup was publicly posted there were no further changes allowed, and suggestions were not wanted (as there would be no changes anymore anyway).

---- What I wanted to try ----

1.  Have the players vote on the theme of the battle.

2.  The scenario team works up a starter design for whatever won the vote.

3.  The scenario team posts the starter design/writeup and opens the "scenario design" topic, where the design process works as follows.

---- The design topic ----

In the design topic, everyone can post comments and suggestions and discuss.  During this process, if the scenario team sees a suggestion that it agrees is a significant improvement, it puts a change into the writeup.  Not every suggestion will be considered an improvement.  During the process, the scenario team itself may come up with new ideas.  If a change seems like it will be highly contentions, the scenario team may choose, in its own discretion, to seek approval of both side CO's before putting it in.  Throughout, the scenario team can answer questions and explain why a change is (or is not) made, giving people a view into the process.

The purpose of the design topic is:
-- To get more eyeballs on the design looking for errors and significant design flaws.
-- To get suggestions for the scenario team to consider.
-- For players to see explanations of why a change was or was not put into the writeup.
-- To serve as a sounding board for ideas.
-- To give players at least some input where there was zero before.

What is not the purpose of the design topic (and wouldn't be allowed even if I thought it was a good idea, which I don't):
-- To turn the design process into design by public vote.
-- For the scenario team to abdicate its responsibility to determine the final design.
-- To obligate the scenario team to implement every suggestion.
-- To obligate the scenario team to agree with you.
-- To remove the scenario team's right (that everyone has) to reconsider or come up with new ideas.

---- Analogy ----

You know in a scenario when the CO puts up a "strategy discussion" topic?  Folks can post ideas on what the orders should be, what the strengths and weaknesses are, but ultimately it is the CO's responsibility to choose what to do, what suggestions to implement, which ones not to?  And then, once he puts out the final orders, folks accept those as the final orders?  You know how in scenarios decent players don't act up if their strategy suggestions aren't implemented by the CO in the orders?  You know how in scenarios decent players don't bitterly complain about the final orders, calling the CO dictatorial, threatening to quit because the CO didn't put in their idea?  You now how people don't tell the CO that they and four other players voted and decided that the orders should include this or that?

Well, that's how this topic should go.

Thoughts at random, based on some recent posts I've seen:

-- If you think this process is dictatorial, maybe you didn't participate in scenarios prior to 2016, where the process was approximately infinity percent more dictatorial.
-- If you don't like this system, your alternative is the old way.  No CM but me wants anything but the old way, and I'm starting think they are right.
-- The scenario team has the right to have opinions, too.
-- The scenario team is not obligated to agree with your opinion, even if you and some buddies think it's great, even if you get all emotional about it.
-- We are not playing 5-year-old games like "you said, 'X is great', so you can't ever say 'after thinking about it some more, I don't think X is great anymore'.  You are stuck with X once you say it!"
-- We don't have design by vote.  The scenario team's responsibility is still to do what it thinks is best.

What makes you mad is if the scenario team doesn't do what you want.  But the scenario team makes changes or not only because we honestly think doing it makes a better scenario.  We don't want to make you mad.  We'll try not to.  But we will do what we think makes a better scenario whether you get mad about it or not.  Ultimately, you decide if you are going to be mad or not.  If you can choose not to, you'll be happier.

Offline Brooke

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Offline Larry

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #155 on: August 02, 2018, 05:42:11 AM »
This is just my opinion but I think because this battle took part around Italy and because they were there the C.205 should be included in this setup in limited numbers.
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Offline APDrone

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #156 on: August 02, 2018, 06:39:56 AM »
AKDrone

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Offline Brooke

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #157 on: August 02, 2018, 07:01:56 AM »
While we gather the votes and consider if we just go back to the Ways of Olde, let me try to make progress here.

In the course of our gentlemanly discussions regarding the graceful, swan-like Spitfire, it seemed for a moment like folks might be OK with 8 Spit 9's.  But ye gods, while bringing in those two extra Spits, one rolled over Arch Duke Ferdinand, crushing him flat, Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, and everything was downhill from there.

So, here we find ourselves still with version 2 of the writeup.  Written in the table "Allied Order of Battle", still sitting patiently between P-38's and B-25's, are 6 Spit VIII's.

What to do?

Some axis folks want those 6 Spit 8's to become 6 Spit 9's, and that's it.  (Why?  Because they consider the Spit 8 superior to Spit 9's.  I didn't think so before, but they were so hot on it, I dug into more, and yes, they convinced me that I was wrong.  The Spit 8 is better than the Spit 9.)

And, after more thought about all of this, I feel that the allies with all Spit 9's and no Spit 8's will be a little under powered compared to the axis.  This based on having flown 190A's vs. Spit 9's, 109G's vs. P-38's, P-38's vs. 109G's, P-38's vs. 190A's in scenarios and thinking some more about Tunisia, 1943.  Under powered by like maybe a couple of airplanes worth (which, before the fate of Arch Duke Ferdinand, I would have thought to be not such a big deal).

So, axis people who do not like:
A. 8 spit 9's

Which of these do you like better:
B.  6 Spit 8's.
C.  6 Spit 9's and two more P-38G's.

I know you prefer:
D.  6 Spit 9's.

I will even put D up to a vote in the scenario team.  My vote will be "no" on D, but I'm a minority vote.  I'm OK with B or C -- not sure which I think is best.

Offline Brooke

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #158 on: August 02, 2018, 07:17:59 AM »
This is just my opinion but I think because this battle took part around Italy and because they were there the C.205 should be included in this setup in limited numbers.

There are several types of aircraft that were there in smaller numbers that we aren't putting in the scenario (110's, C.200's, C.205's) because we have 24 fighters (4 6-plane) fighter groups on the side. If there historically were 40% 109's, 24% 190's, 27% c.2's (only a quarter of those are C.205's), the best way in our opinion is what we have.

We can't add another group -- we are already picking the size to be what we think we will get based on past 1.5 years of scenarios.  We don't want to change a 6-plane group into a 4-plane group and a 2-plane group.  We don't want to remove a 109 group and replace it with C.205's (because that is way out of whack representation wise).  We don't want to replace the c.202's with c.205's, as more c.202's were there than c.205's, and as that ruins the balance with P-40's.

Now, if we had 100 pilots on a side, we could probably squeak them in.  :aok

Offline jeffn

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #159 on: August 02, 2018, 09:52:29 AM »
AH, so the enforcer comes out to demand 'Yes Men!'

I'm going to fight for the ideas I feel valid and I'd expect no less from anyone else, even a side CO. If they want a Yes Man, they need to state that before they go. If they want argument because it forces consideration of counter points and forces one to come up with reasonable ideas to counter it and there by allowing a better plan, then they need to accept they won't have Yes Men.

Seph,

This statement is unfair and not accurate. Obviously your opinion, but I would ask that you give me a chance to prove you wrong. Na, change that, I will prove you wrong.

I have not posted much because this group covers all topics, both side very well. I can tell you that I have erased posts because someone has beat me to it.

My feeling is that if two extra spits or p-38’s are going to make such a huge diffence, than we have already lost. I like a challenge, I would hate for any event to be extreamly one sided. With our 190s, 109s and ju88s and who is leading them, I feel we have the edge. It will all come down to pilots, strategy, some perfect timing and a little luck.

Will post more later, busy work day, need to get back to it.

<S>
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Offline perdue3

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #160 on: August 02, 2018, 12:51:02 PM »
I would go with B or C as well. I still do not see why the Allies need more airplanes. In all likelihood they will outnumber us during the frames anyway due to attendance. Alas, I suppose C would be my preference between those 2. But, D is the best option.
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Offline jeffn

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #161 on: August 02, 2018, 01:04:13 PM »
I’m good with D if Weiser is
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Offline Larry

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #162 on: August 02, 2018, 01:05:27 PM »
I vote E!

E - lets start this thing already so I can blow some stuff up!
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Offline BFOOT1

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #163 on: August 02, 2018, 02:04:05 PM »
c add more 38’s  :aok

PS don’t forget to change them from fighter groups, to fighter squadrons!
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Offline perdue3

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Re: "Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic
« Reply #164 on: August 02, 2018, 04:14:20 PM »
c add more 38’s  :aok

PS don’t forget to change them from fighter groups, to fighter squadrons!

This!!
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