Author Topic: More MAX information  (Read 40097 times)

Offline Toad

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #195 on: March 26, 2019, 08:23:55 PM »
Well....my hair is totally gray now. What's left of it anyway!

<edit> You got me to thinking though. I think my company left the 40 notch open quite a while. I'm thinking they blocked it off in the late 90s when the Stage 3 noise limit was otw. Not real sure though as my remembering isn't what it used to be.</edit>
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 08:49:09 PM by Toad »
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Offline Busher

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #196 on: March 26, 2019, 09:45:29 PM »
Well....my hair is totally gray now. What's left of it anyway!

<edit> You got me to thinking though. I think my company left the 40 notch open quite a while. I'm thinking they blocked it off in the late 90s when the Stage 3 noise limit was otw. Not real sure though as my remembering isn't what it used to be.</edit>

My hair too. All I can tell you is my company had it blocked by 1982 when I got on it. Some of the senior guys said there had been some "firm arrivals" before they did it. Nothing serious.. just embarrassing.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #197 on: March 26, 2019, 11:29:18 PM »
My hair too. All I can tell you is my company had it blocked by 1982 when I got on it. Some of the senior guys said there had been some "firm arrivals" before they did it. Nothing serious.. just embarrassing.

“The Rubber-Tired Jackhammer.”

I got to ride the jumpseat on it once when AA still had them.  I was amazed at how quiet it was until above 10,000’—when it was pedal to the metal time.   

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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #198 on: March 27, 2019, 10:37:31 AM »
Was talking to my corporate pilot brother-in-law last night.  We were talking about the MAX - he loves the plane and it's automated systems.  Also reinforced the automated tech in how it allows better SA to focus on other areas while the tech takes care of the flying.  He's had his fair share of aircraft issues - engine failures - control issues - cockpit instruments crapping out on approach - bird strikes - other aircraft flying too close... yet he commented that instrument/system issues were the most dangerous.

Not because they cause they alone cause airplane to crash - but that both pilots become so absorbed in the issues, they forget the #1 RULE of any aircraft issue.

FLY THE AIRPLANE

He was wondering how much that played a role in both the Lion and Ethiopian MAX crashes? And why other pilots who also ran into the same issue, managed to just work around it? What was so different about those crews?

We don't know yet.
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Offline Busher

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #199 on: March 27, 2019, 06:06:47 PM »
Experience.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #200 on: March 27, 2019, 06:13:07 PM »
Experience.

There is no substitute.
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Offline eagl

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #201 on: March 27, 2019, 08:40:53 PM »
Again.  How does a 727 have “a wing that slows the airplane faster” than previous jets as the author implies?

Makes no sense.

I think you're picking nits :)

edit - I see Mr. Toad has beaten this horse to death.  But here is my reply anyhow.

If you're not...  It sounds like they added high lift design features to the wing that also bumped up the drag curve, so that with the power at idle the airspeed bleed rate with the new wing features was higher than the pilots had gotten used to.  A pilot used to ripping throttles to idle 5nm prior to the FAF and then casually dropping gear and flaps prior to bumping up the throttles to catch his 600ish fpm descent rate at the FAF might find himself getting VERY slow if he relied on his old pacing and habit patterns.  "Slowing down faster" = higher airspeed bleed rate as the aircraft is configured.

Also, a pilot used to pulling the throttles back to idle at 50 ft prior to the roundout/flare in order to slow from approach speed to touchdown speed might find the increased airspeed bleed rate surprising, with the plane slowing below touchdown speed significantly higher than before.  That would require a completely different power reduction profile when transitioning from approach to landing.

I can see how a complacent know-it-all pilot or a new guy relying on someone else's rule of thumb might get caught by this.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 08:42:46 PM by eagl »
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Offline Arlo

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #202 on: March 27, 2019, 08:46:43 PM »
I can see how a complacent know-it-all pilot or a new guy relying on someone else's rule of thumb might get caught by this.

Oh, you cruel ol' meany.  :D

Offline eagl

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #203 on: March 27, 2019, 08:48:19 PM »
I had to modify my landing style going from the bus to the 737.  The bus would automatically profile a reduction to idle or near-idle in the flare with autothrottles on, so a lazy pilot could flare normally and wait until the plane started yelling "retard retard" to pull the throttles back.  With this mechanization assisting landing, I could focus on actually flaring the plane and landing softly because I knew it was unlikely that I'd have an early power pull getting me slow in the flare.

In the 737, I'm doing the power pull.  So timing the power pull and flare is significantly more tricky.  The "better" method in my opinion is the "fly it on" technique, which is a slower/later power pull and flying it down to the runway as opposed to trying to flare it off for a soft touchdown.  The fly it on method has been far more consistent for me, and I've noticed that almost every 737 CA I've flown with uses that method as well.  The drawback can be slightly longer touchdowns especially if approach speed is high (or a big wind gust additive is being used), however as long as the pilot is aware of aimpoint control and runway length and the touchdown zone, then it's certainly manageable even on shorter runways with higher weight aircraft (737-800 into MDW or SNA for example).  Just fly it on, plop it down early if runway length is even remotely questionable, and brake like there's no tomorrow with full reversers, and there's usually plenty of room even with a wet runway.

The only "trick" is to make your go-around decision in the approach briefing, not in the flare watching unusable/unused runway disappear under your butt.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #204 on: March 27, 2019, 08:52:44 PM »
I think you're picking nits :)

edit - I see Mr. Toad has beaten this horse to death.  But here is my reply anyhow.

If you're not...  It sounds like they added high lift design features to the wing that also bumped up the drag curve, so that with the power at idle the airspeed bleed rate with the new wing features was higher than the pilots had gotten used to.  A pilot used to ripping throttles to idle 5nm prior to the FAF and then casually dropping gear and flaps prior to bumping up the throttles to catch his 600ish fpm descent rate at the FAF might find himself getting VERY slow if he relied on his old pacing and habit patterns.  "Slowing down faster" = higher airspeed bleed rate as the aircraft is configured.

Also, a pilot used to pulling the throttles back to idle at 50 ft prior to the roundout/flare in order to slow from approach speed to touchdown speed might find the increased airspeed bleed rate surprising, with the plane slowing below touchdown speed significantly higher than before.  That would require a completely different power reduction profile when transitioning from approach to landing.

I can see how a complacent know-it-all pilot or a new guy relying on someone else's rule of thumb might get caught by this.

I kinda addressed all this, but, yeah.   Your analysis is right on.   

It’s just the way the guy wrote it...I thought to myself, “What a schmuck.”   But that’s what happens when people on the outside write about stuff on the inside.   

 :salute
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Offline Arlo

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #205 on: March 27, 2019, 08:57:04 PM »
and brake like there's no tomorrow with full reversers, and there's usually plenty of room even with a wet runway.

In my stint in my squadron as a ground handler (there were no TAR ABs and we all rotated duty in this when we were newly arrived airmen), hot brake issues were a safety hazard (day or, especially night).  :(

Offline eagl

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #206 on: March 27, 2019, 09:33:37 PM »
In my stint in my squadron as a ground handler (there were no TAR ABs and we all rotated duty in this when we were newly arrived airmen), hot brake issues were a safety hazard (day or, especially night).  :(

It's still an issue in some circumstances, however the 737 brakes are sized so that with normal landing weights, there is almost no chance of hot brakes being a significant enough problem to warrant any precautions or extra measures for cooling.  We do need to run a brake cooling calculator and checklist in the event of a rejected takeoff or abnormal landing (landing with less than full flaps or without reversers, for example).  Then the calculator tells us if we have to wait before going to the gate and how long we have to wait before the next takeoff.

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #207 on: March 27, 2019, 09:39:46 PM »
It's still an issue in some circumstances, however the 737 brakes are sized so that with normal landing weights, there is almost no chance of hot brakes being a significant enough problem to warrant any precautions or extra measures for cooling.  We do need to run a brake cooling calculator and checklist in the event of a rejected takeoff or abnormal landing (landing with less than full flaps or without reversers, for example).  Then the calculator tells us if we have to wait before going to the gate and how long we have to wait before the next takeoff.

I love the Embraer.  We have temp sensors.   In the green at line up we are good to reject.

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Offline Arlo

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #208 on: March 27, 2019, 09:39:59 PM »
It's still an issue in some circumstances, however the 737 brakes are sized so that with normal landing weights, there is almost no chance of hot brakes being a significant enough problem to warrant any precautions or extra measures for cooling.  We do need to run a brake cooling calculator and checklist in the event of a rejected takeoff or abnormal landing (landing with less than full flaps or without reversers, for example).  Then the calculator tells us if we have to wait before going to the gate and how long we have to wait before the next takeoff.

Well, I reckon the "new" P-8 has an advantage over the P-3.  :)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #209 on: March 27, 2019, 09:40:51 PM »
Well, I reckon the "new" P-8 has an advantage over the P-3.  :)

Yes.  More Atlantic Bucks!  (Charter guys will get the joke.)
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