More MAX information

[Busher]

Toad said "I think the Boeing CEO did what his paid crisis management advisors told him to do."

I think he's on point. Consider:

Outcome 1: Report maligns aviation safety worldwide due to steadily declining pilot experience levels.. people are frightened and passenger enplanements decline. Airlines lose money and stop ordering airplanes.

Outcome 2: Boeing takes the blame and promises to fix the airplane. People keep flying and the dollars keep rolling in. All the manufacturers set their design teams to make automation fail-safe while they pray for no more accidents. There have been far too many "lack-of-experience" fatal accidents in recent years to continue this same path.

[ACE]

Outcome 2 seems the more common sense approach. Obviously there’s an issue with the plane. Thankfully they are fixing it! 

[Busher]

Outcome 2 seems the more common sense approach. Obviously there’s an issue with the plane. Thankfully they are fixing it!

Always wondered if vindication through expediency would feel as good.

[Toad]

Issue with the plane? Or the pilots? Or both?

Recall Lion Air. Same aircraft had same malfunction on previous day. Jumpseat rider saved airplane and passengers because he knew to turn off Stab Trim Cutouts. Next day, same malfunction (Maintenance: CND. Go fly it  ) and no jumpseat rider and total loss of aircraft and passengers. Airplane or crew? Bad AOA not fixed by Maintenance. Airplane or Maintenance?

Now the Ethiopian. Looks like another bad AOA. No jumpseat rider. Preliminary doesn't definitively state Stab Trim Cutout was left in the OFF position. It indicates Stab Trim Cutout was re-engaged. Airplane or crew? Still a lot of questions. I for one am not taking the Prelim as the last word. There needs to be a lot more detail. Minute by minute and side by side comparison of Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder. That is how you see how it actually went down.

At the moment, given the first Lion Air experience, I am of the opinion that the aircraft was flyable in both accidents. YMMV.

[Shuffler]

Issue with the plane? Or the pilots? Or both?

Recall Lion Air. Same aircraft had same malfunction on previous day. Jumpseat rider saved airplane and passengers because he knew to turn off Stab Trim Cutouts. Next day, same malfunction (Maintenance: CND. Go fly it  ) and no jumpseat rider and total loss of aircraft and passengers. Airplane or crew? Bad AOA not fixed by Maintenance. Airplane or Maintenance?

Now the Ethiopian. Looks like another bad AOA. No jumpseat rider. Preliminary doesn't definitively state Stab Trim Cutout was left in the OFF position. It indicates Stab Trim Cutout was re-engaged. Airplane or crew? Still a lot of questions. I for one am not taking the Prelim as the last word. There needs to be a lot more detail. Minute by minute and side by side comparison of Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder. That is how you see how it actually went down.

At the moment, given the first Lion Air experience, I am of the opinion that the aircraft was flyable in both accidents. YMMV.

Obviously they Lion Air aircraft was not even repaired. It was just sent on it's way...... that is not Boeing's fault in any way shape or form.

[ACE]

Wonder how big the lawsuit will be against Boeing. Being as they are responsible for the faulty parts on their planes.

[Busher]

Wonder how big the lawsuit will be against Boeing. Being as they are responsible for the faulty parts on their planes.

Only Boeing's and the airline's liability insurance company will care.

[Busher]

Issue with the plane? Or the pilots? Or both?

Recall Lion Air. Same aircraft had same malfunction on previous day. Jumpseat rider saved airplane and passengers because he knew to turn off Stab Trim Cutouts. Next day, same malfunction (Maintenance: CND. Go fly it  ) and no jumpseat rider and total loss of aircraft and passengers. Airplane or crew? Bad AOA not fixed by Maintenance. Airplane or Maintenance?

Now the Ethiopian. Looks like another bad AOA. No jumpseat rider. Preliminary doesn't definitively state Stab Trim Cutout was left in the OFF position. It indicates Stab Trim Cutout was re-engaged. Airplane or crew? Still a lot of questions. I for one am not taking the Prelim as the last word. There needs to be a lot more detail. Minute by minute and side by side comparison of Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder. That is how you see how it actually went down.


Sadly Toad, I suspect expediency will shadow the truth on this one for all time. And after all the hype, try to find anyone who would believe the truth even if it was published.
At the moment, given the first Lion Air experience, I am of the opinion that the aircraft was flyable in both accidents. YMMV.

[TyFoo]

In the report it refers to discrepancies in airspeed, altitude and pitch between the left & right side as well as the AOA. Those are Air Data Computer (ADC) pitot/ static inputs.

Either turning on the heat prior to the initial roll was missed or it malfunctioned as there was a Master Caution or Warning after liftoff. This in itself isn’t really relevant - Who hasn’t missed the heat at takeoff check and humbly been reminded by the Master Caution.

However, the other discrepancies between the two sides is certainly an indication that something else was going on.

Anybody know if the MCAS considers ADC input?

[ACE]

Only Boeing's and the airline's liability insurance company will care.

True. I guessing it’ll be pretty hefty considering they didn’t fix the issue the first go around.

[FLS]

Still looks like pilot error. People would question a Boeing report but Ethiopia is supposed to be unbiased?

[Toad]

Ace don’t be an idiot

[Zimme83]

Still looks like pilot error. People would question a Boeing report but Ethiopia is supposed to be unbiased?

You are at this point in a great minority if you think that.

Can give you this for example:
https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/03/et302-used-the-cut-out-switches-to-stop-mcas/#more-29790
https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/05/bjorns-corner-et302-crash-report-the-first-analysis/

The problem is still that the MCAS checklist never accounted for the fact that the manual trim wheel might be impossible to move. And at that point the pilots where left to improvise because there was nothing left in the book that could help them.  They also had conflicting airspeed reading and a stick shaker to deal with.
We still dont know but its what the data suggest so far. The FDR also shows that during even if the pilots pulled the yoke even more back the plane pitched down even more, they where at this point nothing more than passengers... The entire event took 3 minutes. That is not a lot of time to work with.

Could the plane have been saved? Probably in theory, But the pilots were still dealt an awful hand.
Sully could have made it to the runway if he had made perfect decisions, but noone does that in an emergency.

And Both Boeing and NTSB along with European experts are a part of the investigation..

[FLS]

Given the nature of news media, PR, and public discourse, I'm content to be in a great minority.

I'm open minded, still waiting for the final reports.

[Oldman731]

still waiting for the final reports

Seems prudent, although requires great patience.

- oldman