Congrats to the Designers

[Dantoo]

Thanks for this last FSO series.

It's a long while since I've felt good about an eastern front FSO even if I've been on the side taking a bit of a pasting.

This time the aircraft performance disparity was beautifully balanced by the tasking.  It wasn't easy to defeat the bombing attacks (and it never should be) and there was little encouragement in the scoring to pursue strikers after they had hit their targets.

The Axis plans were generally well thought through and executed, which isn't all that easy when you have three frames where you have to hand out a bunch of slow vulnerable bombers.

Second strikes each week (though I was usually at the wrong base).  Not a single US aircraft in sight.

Well done.

[perdue3]

Thank you, Dantoo. Compliments from the likes of you are not taken lightly and we welcome criticism. The plane set was nicely balanced, I felt. I had my worries and the initial order of battle was not what we ultimately went with.

The most difficult part about a design, in my opinion, is scoring. You said there was little encouragement to attack bombers who were going home. We placed emphasis on hangars and not on bombers, but maybe the hangars were worth too much considering bombers were only 2 points. In hindsight I would've advocated for 10 points and 4 points for hangars and bombers, respectively. I don't think any of us thought the Bf 110C was going to be so effective.

It helps future events when they are criticized. We appreciate the kind words and continue to strive at delivering the best possible setups that are fun, balanced, and unique.

<S> Dantoo

[Dantoo]

FWIW 110c4 is crap ground attacker.  You used them very well and the timing, hit and run tactic, and willingness to keep up the sortie rate made them valuable.  That is just the kind of planning and execution that I admire in FSO.

There is a long standing problem, perhaps more often seen with regular Allied squads, that players make one run in the first hour then land and log off.  They miss the anarchic "make it up on the spot" joy of squads improvising for that second hour.  It may have contributed somewhat to the uncontested runs the 110s made later in the frames.  Also, a lone I-16 cannot run down 4 110s on the deck.  I know.  We tried.

[nooby52]

FWIW 110c4 is crap ground attacker.  You used them very well and the timing, hit and run tactic, and willingness to keep up the sortie rate made them valuable.  That is just the kind of planning and execution that I admire in FSO.

There is a long standing problem, perhaps more often seen with regular Allied squads, that players make one run in the first hour then land and log off.  They miss the anarchic "make it up on the spot" joy of squads improvising for that second hour.  It may have contributed somewhat to the uncontested runs the 110s made later in the frames.  Also, a lone I-16 cannot run down 4 110s on the deck.  I know.  We tried.

Dantoo, I too enjoy re-upping (assuming i  survive the initial sortie). I don't like it when I have to fly 45 minutes to the target, with little or no fuel for the RTB. That really makes second sorties impossible. I enjoyed this FSO very much, all three frames. There were plenty of enemy bases with close proximity which made it easy to find some secondary action.

[perdue3]

The second sortie is a growing problem, you are right. I am not sure how to encourage it properly. We have given scoring incentives in the past that did not do exactly what we wanted. My squad always does second sorties and we know that 9 GIAP does too. By going back in Frame 2 with our 110's, we destroyed 2 hangars and met zero resistance. It has been an issue that I would like to remedy, but I am not sure how to entice people to stick around for second sorties.

[Nefarious]

I had fun, missed Frame 2 because I was feeling tired and sick and felt bad as we got Bf 109Fs that frame. Sides seemed to be even in 1 and 3.

Obviously for 2nd sorties you need to keep a reasonable distance between the objectives/fields that allows fighters/jabos and possibly bombers to return quicker to the objective.

I've shared this before, but I wouldn't mind seeing fields reopen for all players after T+60 (or later) for certain fighters at areas maybe near the objectives or even away from the objectives. Enable "reserve" fighters, in this last case Bf 109Es and I-16s and let the discos and early death guys re-up till the EoF. I know, sacrilege against FSO spirit yadda, yadda... But I think it's worth a look to see how it can improve FSO in these times.

[Spikes]

FWIW 110c4 is crap ground attacker.  You used them very well and the timing, hit and run tactic, and willingness to keep up the sortie rate made them valuable.  That is just the kind of planning and execution that I admire in FSO.

There is a long standing problem, perhaps more often seen with regular Allied squads, that players make one run in the first hour then land and log off.  They miss the anarchic "make it up on the spot" joy of squads improvising for that second hour.  It may have contributed somewhat to the uncontested runs the 110s made later in the frames.  Also, a lone I-16 cannot run down 4 110s on the deck.  I know.  We tried.

One thing we tried again a couple months ago was the town building thing, but it is difficult to write the rule in a way that it can't be abused and doesn't create hours of work (combing through the logs) afterwards. We wanted to make it so it was a "secondarily" objective to killing the hangars, but it is difficult to write it that way without forcing a second sortie or not counting the bonus points if someone kills buildings on the first, etc. Additionally you run into the issue of "running up the score" if one side gets obliterated in the first hour, then the other side is free to do whatever they wish, unopposed (although I suppose that could also be considered as the prize for killing everyone).

Definitely open to ideas though. I/we are glad you liked this one, I think we found the sweet spot for early war Eastern Front fighter balance.

I've shared this before, but I wouldn't mind seeing fields reopen for all players after T+60 (or later) for certain fighters at areas maybe near the objectives or even away from the objectives. Enable "reserve" fighters, in this last case Bf 109Es and I-16s and let the discos and early death guys re-up till the EoF. I know, sacrilege against FSO spirit yadda, yadda... But I think it's worth a look to see how it can improve FSO in these times.

I think we talked about something along these lines, the biggest question is do you make it like a combat challenge very far away from the "front line", or do you make it so the guys can help contribute to the ongoing fight and objective for the night?

[Nefarious]

I think we talked about something along these lines, the biggest question is do you make it like a combat challenge very far away from the "front line", or do you make it so the guys can help contribute to the ongoing fight and objective for the night?

I guess that's something you'd have to try. I figure it could work both ways, but If you want both sides fighting over the objectives for as long as the targets remain up then you have to keep them close to the objectives.

I like the idea of having them be lesser or older aircraft. If you can make them different than the first life airplanes you can score them differently as well.

[waystin2]

The Pigs will party for the whole two hours if there are party favors and other participants.  I like this line of thinking!

[Rocco]

This was a really challenging setup (in a good way). Great job!

Just a thought on encouraging second sorties. In my experience there are two main reasons not to run a second mission, not enough time and potential points gained not worth the risk, either because target was mostly flattened already or just not worth enough.

What about introducing an optional secondary target of opportunity in the second hour? It must be hit by a strike that has rearmed to count. It could be worth more or placed closer than the original target depending on the situation. It could even be a surprise to both sides, allowing some flexibility. Say the target was an airfield and the vh wasn't hit in the original strike. For the second hour that vh is worth 2X the points. The unannounced factor can help with the issue of running up the score, as there could just not be a bonus target assigned if one side was wiped out the first hour.

I'm personally not crazy about a multiple life thing but I do like the idea of being able to re-up in a new plane if you land safely. Perhaps a designated weaker fighter on the roster or a new bomber formation. I can't count the number of times damage has ruled out a second sortie after landing. That way damaged guys could get back in it, simulating the pilot hopping into a spare plane.

Just throwing out some ideas. FSO is the highlight of my week and some of the most fun is in the second hour.