Author Topic: Lion Air Report  (Read 8039 times)

Offline Ciaphas

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2019, 12:27:07 AM »
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implied, read 2 post before.  only foreign airplane crashes listed.  also has been mentioned several times of shoddy maintenance on the 2 specific crashed talked about, while in the us, well it happens too.  several crashes due to faulty maintenance.

In the cases of those crashes mentioned, the fact that they were all foreign is irrelevant and in no way removes any doubt that we have our own fair share if poorly trained pilots and MX crews. I have worked with both foreign and US MX crews and I can say with out a shadow of a doubt that in my experience (21 yrs) that rules tend to a bit more like suggestions with our foreign counterparts than with American trained crews.

Complacency will almost always end in a fatal accident when working in and around military and civilian aircraft.

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none of you guys were there, you may have experience and be top of your training class/best at your job, but none of you were there.  you read the after reports and say, well it was an easy fix, airplane could have been saved.  but you still werent there.  I even find it hilarious, when I mentioned they had 100's of flights without a crash and somebody said well they were lucky, it's automated or something like that.

We had a Talon go down about three years ago, both crew members were instructor pilots with 4 yrs of stick time in the Talon. They ended up losing hydro power resulting in a loss of flight controls. The back seater was able to punch out and the front seater rode that talon in to the ground. He could have ejected but HE failed to arm his ejection seat. I know exactly what happened to cause the pilots death, I knew before the investigation even started. How did I know, I have been working on Ejection seats for 19 yrs at that time and 16 of those years as a subject matter expert certified to troubleshoot and overhaul seats made by two different manufacturers with 5 sub designs between them on 5 different aircraft (F-16, F-15, A-10, T-38C and T-6 Texan II, soon to add the T-7). I responded to the crash, walked the debris field, located, dearmed and removed the unfortunate deceased pilots seat (It was in pieces). There was not a single explosive that was fired or a single component that was actuated.

So, yes, experience does play a role with ones ability to diagnose a situation properly.

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so when somebody said you were arm chair captains or something like that, it's true.  but I'll apologize if you tell me that while flying that plane, the same malfunction happened, you identified it correctly and landed that plane.


So, no, being called an arm chair general is about as far out in to left as you can get.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2019, 12:50:54 AM »
ciaphas did you walk the lion air crash site?


semp

edit:  actually the above was a bad way to put it.  did you ever find out why the pilot didnt arm whatever?  I mean you would think that was taught on first day.  same as the 2 crashes.  why they did what they did we can only speculate, but in reality you dont really know.  the only people that were there are dead.  nobody knows their state of mind, confusion, maybe. but who knows.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 01:16:50 AM by guncrasher »
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Ciaphas

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2019, 01:12:51 AM »
ciaphas did you walk the lion air crash site?


semp


Don't have to walk that scene to know that there are several points of failure that lead to the crash.

You have the MX issues that were probably downgraded by a yes man mx super and then an aircrew that was probably pencil whipped through their training and reoccurring certs and you have the ingredients for a perfect storm.

as for the patsy, add the MCAS system that has been all over the news to the incident as the whipping boy and you now have a company that can hide subpar training standards for both aircrew and MX personnel.





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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2019, 01:36:51 AM »
Nah it was all good until they started competing with a US Company  - Cisco... who used to get Huawei to make their kit.

I guess that depends on how you view communism.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2019, 01:40:41 AM »
ciaphas did you walk the lion air crash site?


semp

edit:  actually the above was a bad way to put it.  did you ever find out why the pilot didnt arm whatever?  I mean you would think that was taught on first day.  same as the 2 crashes.  why they did what they did we can only speculate, but in reality you dont really know.  the only people that were there are dead.  nobody knows their state of mind, confusion, maybe. but who knows.

Well.... they did fly those planes into the ground. There is that. The throttles were even still set for takeoff thrust on at least one of the aircraft.
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Offline Ciaphas

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2019, 02:10:39 AM »
Quote
edit:  actually the above was a bad way to put it.  did you ever find out why the pilot didnt arm whatever?  I mean you would think that was taught on first day.  same as the 2 crashes.  why they did what they did we can only speculate, but in reality you dont really know.  the only people that were there are dead.  nobody knows their state of mind, confusion, maybe. but who knows.

The official statement said it was due to an interrupted pre-take off checklist.

If a checklist is interrupted, start it again but for the love of god do not ignore it. This was pilot error and nothing more.

On an airfield that sees over 50,000 sorties per year with no major mishaps it is easy to slip in to a state of complacent behavior. The whole "it'll never happen to me" mentality affects everyone.


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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2019, 08:44:27 AM »
Of course no American pilot ever crashed and airplane due to pilot it training error.


semp

When American pilots crash we take our lumps.  We don't blame the airplane when it's our fault.   Derp.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2019, 08:48:59 AM »

none of you guys were there, you may have experience and be top of your training class/best at your job, but none of you were there.  you read the after reports and say, well it was an easy fix, airplane could have been saved.  but you still werent there.  I even find it hilarious, when I mentioned they had 100's of flights without a crash and somebody said well they were lucky, it's automated or something like that.

so when somebody said you were arm chair captains or something like that, it's true.  but I'll apologize if you tell me that while flying that plane, the same malfunction happened, you identified it correctly and landed that plane.

semp

I was "there" two weeks ago.   You know what I did?  I disabled the stab trim and I did not re-engage it.   I used the toboggan method and had my PM manually trim the airplane when I unloaded it.    I did NOT re-engage the stab trim in direct violation of the QRH like these two idiots did, and I didn't stay at takeoff thrust nor did I accelerate beyond the speed I was at where the airplane was still flyable.

The procedures in the book are written for a reason--often in blood.   This is a case in point.  They screwed up.   Had they followed the procedures and still crashed then my commentary would be much different.   But they didn't so it isn't.

 
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2019, 08:50:55 AM »

Don't have to walk that scene to know that there are several points of failure that lead to the crash.

You have the MX issues that were probably downgraded by a yes man mx super and then an aircrew that was probably pencil whipped through their training and reoccurring certs and you have the ingredients for a perfect storm.

as for the patsy, add the MCAS system that has been all over the news to the incident as the whipping boy and you now have a company that can hide subpar training standards for both aircrew and MX personnel.


I guess that depends on how you view communism.


Stop confusing the boy with facts, you guys. 
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2019, 08:51:42 AM »
The official statement said it was due to an interrupted pre-take off checklist.

If a checklist is interrupted, start it again but for the love of god do not ignore it. This was pilot error and nothing more.

On an airfield that sees over 50,000 sorties per year with no major mishaps it is easy to slip in to a state of complacent behavior. The whole "it'll never happen to me" mentality affects everyone.


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Richard Bong and Don Gentile fall into that category quite directly.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2019, 10:05:11 AM »
The official statement said it was due to an interrupted pre-take off checklist.

If a checklist is interrupted, start it again but for the love of god do not ignore it. This was pilot error and nothing more.

On an airfield that sees over 50,000 sorties per year with no major mishaps it is easy to slip in to a state of complacent behavior. The whole "it'll never happen to me" mentality affects everyone.


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Complacency can and will kill everyone, given a chance.



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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2019, 11:12:33 AM »
Complacency can and will kill everyone, given a chance.

Yup. So will ego. B-52 pilot Arthur "Bud" Holland's last flight is now a training video for all military pilots on how to NOT fly an aircraft and what impact of not addressing ego and bad flying behaviours.

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Offline Ciaphas

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Lion Air Report
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2019, 11:39:14 AM »
Yup. So will ego. B-52 pilot Arthur "Bud" Holland's last flight is now a training video for all military pilots on how to NOT fly an aircraft and what impact of not addressing ego and bad flying behaviours.


Bud should have been stripped of his wings long before that fatal incident.

My father tagged and bagged the body parts from that crash... .

Often times people will allow people to slip through the cracks because they cannot be bothered to do the paperwork required to remove someone from a situation. the thought process " If I can make it through without this guy killing someone then it's someone else's problem" is all to common from people in positions of transitioning authority.

... .


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Offline Puma44

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2019, 12:50:54 PM »
Yup. So will ego. B-52 pilot Arthur "Bud" Holland's last flight is now a training video for all military pilots on how to NOT fly an aircraft and what impact of not addressing ego and bad flying behaviours.



I was on staff at an intermediate headquarters when he killed the two guys with him.  Fairchild AFB  was under our sphere of command.  As such, many of us were involved and privy to the AF Safety board investigation.  When the numerous loose cannon events in his past were revealed, it was obvious that this guy should have been grounded L O N G before this entirely preventable tragedy happened.  The associated tragedy of this mess was that the base command structure did absolutely NOTHING to stop his behavior.  Accident?  More like a criminal act when the full story was revealed.

And by the way, this guy’s act wasn’t one of complacency.  It was pure out of control ego that killed two innocents. Absolutely no excuse for it.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 12:55:57 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2019, 02:42:01 PM »
Yup. So will ego. B-52 pilot Arthur "Bud" Holland's last flight is now a training video for all military pilots on how to NOT fly an aircraft and what impact of not addressing ego and bad flying behaviours.

DARKER SHADES OF BLUE is a precautionary tale for anyone involved in flying airplanes--or managing those Who do.    It's essential reading for anyone involved in leadership.


Edit in: http://sbfpd.org/uploads/3/0/9/6/3096011/darker_shades_of_blue.pdf
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 03:08:53 PM by Vraciu »
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