Lion Air Report

[guncrasher]

as a passenger this thread scares the crap out of me.  I understand that things can go wrong and a good pilot makes a difference.  but I dont understand is when you know something is not working right, but you say dont worry, we can overcome that, then think this, would you let your children knowing something should be fixed before a plane is allowed to fly and the difference makes a pilot.  damn I would not allow myself or my children to fly in this airplane.  dont give a flying goose if the best pilot on the world flies it.
 

semp

[Shuffler]

as a passenger this thread scares the crap out of me.  I understand that things can go wrong and a good pilot makes a difference.  but I dont understand is when you know something is not working right, but you say dont worry, we can overcome that, then think this, would you let your children knowing something should be fixed before a plane is allowed to fly and the difference makes a pilot.  damn I would not allow myself or my children to fly in this airplane.  dont give a flying goose if the best pilot on the world flies it.
 

semp

The first crash the plane was not maintained properly. It crashed but could have been saved with a trained crew. The second crash we have not heard if a sensor was known bad prior but one did go bad and the crew failed to fly the plane. Again crew training.

I would definitely not fly on either of those airlines either. No matter what aircraft they are using.

[Puma44]

.....and the crew failed to fly the plane. Again crew training.

I would definitely not fly on either of those airlines either. No matter what aircraft they are using.

It boils down to culture of safety, or lack there of. 

[Vraciu]

as a passenger this thread scares the crap out of me.  I understand that things can go wrong and a good pilot makes a difference.  but I dont understand is when you know something is not working right, but you say dont worry, we can overcome that, then think this, would you let your children knowing something should be fixed before a plane is allowed to fly and the difference makes a pilot.  damn I would not allow myself or my children to fly in this airplane.  dont give a flying goose if the best pilot on the world flies it.
 

semp

Flying is a risky endeavor on the safest airplane.   Anything can go wrong at any time.  If you can't accept that, don't fly.   And avoid Third World carriers at all costs.

[Busher]

It boils down to culture of safety, or lack there of.

I'd like to expand upon Puma44's point. Legacy carriers in North America and western Europe have a safety culture that has been developed over decades of flying. Some of the culture comes from formal Regulations, but the essence grows from all involved in operations; pilots, management, maintenance, dispatch all function as a team. Non-punitive safety reports are the new norm and they are encouraged. That exposes hidden weaknesses in any operation so that improvements can be made. 

I have never worked for a low cost carrier or in the third world but I am not convinced that their operations operate with the "do it right or don't do it at all" attitude. In these situations, the last line of defence to safety has to be a well trained and experienced pilot group; and at the risk of bringing up a sore point with many, this is where the pilot Union fulfils its motto of "Schedule with Safety". Whether its unsafe weather, a poorly maintained airplane, a dangerous runway, anything; if the pilot says this flight is not going, he or she should not have to fear for his job.

[Puma44]

I'd like to expand upon Puma44's point. Legacy carriers in North America and western Europe have a safety culture that has been developed over decades of flying. Some of the culture comes from formal Regulations, but the essence grows from all involved in operations; pilots, management, maintenance, dispatch all function as a team. Non-punitive safety reports are the new norm and they are encouraged. That exposes hidden weaknesses in any operation so that improvements can be made. 

I have never worked for a low cost carrier or in the third world but I am not convinced that their operations operate with the "do it right or don't do it at all" attitude. In these situations, the last line of defence to safety has to be a well trained and experienced pilot group; and at the risk of bringing up a sore point with many, this is where the pilot Union fulfils its motto of "Schedule with Safety". Whether its unsafe weather, a poorly maintained airplane, a dangerous runway, anything; if the pilot says this flight is not going, he or she should not have to fear for his job.

Couldn’t agree more, Busher.  Well said! 

[Toad]

Well I started this thread but then I got REALLY busy with work and personal life stuff. Just back around to checking it out. Developed about the way I thought it would.

This bit caught my eye.

...none of you guys were there, you may have experience and be top of your training class/best at your job, but none of you were there.  you read the after reports and say, well it was an easy fix, airplane could have been saved.  but you still werent there.   

...but I'll apologize if you tell me that while flying that plane, the same malfunction happened, you identified it correctly and landed that plane.

semp

So here's a true tale of essentially the same situation that actually happened at my airline. This was late 80s IIRC.

There was a B737-200 off 17R at DFW going to ABQ, full passenger load. That day the right seater was PF. As soon as the gear unstuck, (there's that little 'click' when the landing gear solenoid unlocks) the stick shaker activated. The right seater kept flying as normal, normal pitch/normal power. In a 1/4 heart beat both the right seater's left hand and the Captain's right hand met momentarily the flap lever, confirming they were 20. In another quarter heart beat both pilot's hands then jumped to the throttles, confirming they were full forward. The right seater called out "we're doing 160, we ain't stalling". The Captain in the left seat said "keep flying". There was no configuration change at all. By this time the the FA's were dinging the hell out of the phone as the stick shaker was vibrating them in their tail seats and the Captain picked up the phone and calmed them down. The Captain noted it was his left side stick shaker motor that was activated. The Captain found and then pulled the left side AOA CB and there was instantly a return to normal flight operation and feel. The Captain then told the right seater to keep flying; he then coordinated a return to DFW. The right seater flew the entire pattern and landing. After parking an inspection was performed; the crew and mechanics looked at the left AOA at the gate. It was hanging by two wires. When the passenger service agent pulled the jetway away, the AOA vane got dinged.

This is essentially what happened to both the Lion Air and Ethiopian crews. The INITIAL problem was a plain vanilla AOA malfunction. The 737Max crews did not handle that malfunction correctly. The B737-200 crew did. It's just that simple.

So you have one highly experienced well trained crew THAT WAS THERE in essentially the same situation. They correctly identified it. In that case, after perhaps a minute, the situation was resolved with an easy fix and a normal landing was made.

Bottom line: FLY THE JET.

[Mister Fork]

So you have one highly experienced well trained crew THAT WAS THERE in essentially the same situation. They correctly identified it. In that case, after perhaps a minute, the situation was resolved with an easy fix and a normal landing was made.

Bottom line: FLY THE JET

This.

[Shuffler]

It is probably the most repeated phrase in flying any aircraft when things get out of kilter.... just fly the damn plane

[Vraciu]

It is probably the most repeated phrase in flying any aircraft when things get out of kilter.... just fly the damn plane

"Just fly the damn plane!" - Russian Van Driver,  Firefox

[Puma44]

...but I'll apologize if you tell me that while flying that plane, the same malfunction happened, you identified it correctly and landed that plane.

semp

Apology accepted.

[Vraciu]

Apology accepted.

+1

[Puma44]

It is probably the most repeated phrase in flying any aircraft when things get out of kilter.... just fly the damn plane

This.

Step one in ANY aircraft malfunction, non normal, or emergency event:  MAINTAIN AIRCRAFT CONTROL.

[Vraciu]

Well you can’t maintain aircraft control very long when you exceed Vmo by 100+ knots because you didn’t pull the power back...

[deSelys]

Are you really considering activation of the stick shaker and the plane repetitively and forcefully trying to lawndart the 'same situation'?