Author Topic: Emperor Commodus  (Read 4340 times)

Offline SysError

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2020, 12:30:00 PM »
Netflix has a docu series on Roman Emperors.  Commodus is the focus on season 3 I believe.  Much more informative then Gladiator.

Good suggestion - I had started to watch a while ago and just stopped for some reason.

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Offline SysError

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2020, 12:53:08 PM »
If you have never given Rome serious thought (meaning rigorous academic reading, research, theoretical work), then there is a good starter list I could recommend. If you feel that you are past the elementary stages and want something more intuitive (which requires a complete and thorough understanding of Roman history), I could recommend a different list. To put it simply, there are essentially three types of academic works on Rome: military, politics, general. My recommendation would be to start with a  general history and go from there.

For any new student I would always recommend Mary Beard's SPQR. It is a general history, but it is not a public history. This means it is not meant to reach only the slightly enthused (I think of David McCullough, Bill O'Reilly, and Brian Kilmeade). I never recommend public histories to anyone for they are written for people who know nothing of the topic and are only slightly interested in the topic. Mary Beard's book is comprehensive, but it does not make claims and suggestions that much more involved academic works do. It is perfect for a Roman History 200 level student and even 100 level. She covers the basis that is needed to fully understand the complexities of the Republic and Empire. What she does not cover is the real minute details such as Rome's graffiti problems, vandalism (no pun), political conniving, detailed analysis of battles, detailed makeup of the army, etc. For these things, one need look elsehwere, but if you want a solid general history with no fluff, Mary Beard is a winner.

If your interests only lie in politics, military, or other area of Roman history, I could recommend different works.

I would say that as a kid I used be right on top of the topic, but sadly I just never did much with it. 

Your suggestion to pick up Beard's book, at this point in my life, is probably a good one.  A few years ago I downloaded Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcasts and I was surprised by how much I had forgotten.  And since I have come to learn that I don't seem to retain anything from podcasts, it is probably a good idea to read a good survey book.

The reason I was interested by your comment on Gibbon is that even as a kid I never really saw that Rome had ever fallen - but how much currency does a kid have?

Anyway, about maybe 10 years ago or so, I came across passing references to the idea that Rome perhaps hadn't "fallen" but rather had transformed itself in the church.  So obviously, any reframing of Gibbon is of some interest to me.

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Offline perdue3

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2020, 01:47:01 PM »
I would say that as a kid I used be right on top of the topic, but sadly I just never did much with it. 

Your suggestion to pick up Beard's book, at this point in my life, is probably a good one.  A few years ago I downloaded Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcasts and I was surprised by how much I had forgotten.  And since I have come to learn that I don't seem to retain anything from podcasts, it is probably a good idea to read a good survey book.

The reason I was interested by your comment on Gibbon is that even as a kid I never really saw that Rome had ever fallen - but how much currency does a kid have?

Anyway, about maybe 10 years ago or so, I came across passing references to the idea that Rome perhaps hadn't "fallen" but rather had transformed itself in the church.  So obviously, any reframing of Gibbon is of some interest to me.

Duncan's The Storm Before the Storm was surprisingly good. I expected it to be "History Lite" but it was well done. Beard's SPQR is fantastic as it will remind you of what you have forgotten and certainly teach you things you did not know. It provides a wonderful foundation for Rome's history as an entity. From there, you can branch off into many different works on many different topics. I am quite interested in tactics, so I have spent a lot of time reading about that part of Rome's history.

So Gibbon is a staple in Roman historiography. It is usually the first one, two, or three books an ancient history major reads about Rome. It was really the first comprehensive history of the entire history of Rome. This is what makes so incredibly important. However, as a scholar, one must be weary of using his thesis as fact. That is because he wrote it with a specific purpose, to counter the Enlightenment's thinkers on the matter of faith. He essentially blames the fall of Rome on their loss of morality and faith. In many ways, he is predicting, like John the Revelator, what will ultimately happen to Europe (specifically London and Paris). This is why I claimed it to be allegorical. It comes off as a historical claim, but it is in fact a treatise on keeping faith. This is similar to most of Procopius's work during the reign of Justinian (we can save this for a later time perhaps).

I am not sure that I would agree with Roman Catholicism and Christianity taking the place of the Roman Empire. I can say that up until the Great Schism (and perhaps until the Fourth Crusade), that was likely the idea in the eyes of the clergy. I have written about Christendom (idea of a Christian empire) in the past and have theorized that the Crusades were a part of that idea as were Spain's explorations. Here is a paragraph from that essay:

"The Crusades represent yet another major turning point in European history, especially when the idea of Europe is considered. The Crusades was a calling to all of Christendom to unite and fight under the flag of faith to defeat the Muslims who occupied the Holy Land. This was an important goal for several reasons. One of those reasons being the thought that the Roman Catholic Church was the continuation of the Roman Empire (footnote here: Housley, "Crusades and Islam"). The Roman Empire, famously, once occupied this territory and as it was this empire that spread Christianity throughout Europe. Another reason was much more fundamental, as Jerusalem represented the place of death of Jesus Christ . His blood was shed on the very ground just outside of the city. To think that the Muslim infidels now ruled this land was tormenting to the pope and ecclesiastics. Yet another possible purpose of the First Crusade was an attempt at pushing the issue of secularists, who were in debate with ecclesiastics, to the side by uniting in conflict against Islam.  When Pope Urban II called for the ‘Holy War’ against the Islamic caliphates, many kingdoms obliged and set sail to the Levant and Anatolia. Although the soldiers, barons, dukes, and kings who fought in the First Crusade (1095-1099) were of different backgrounds, cultures, languages, etc., they united under the church and under the faith. "

This comes from an essay regarding the idea of Europe. That idea was born of Catholicism. While an entity such as the Roman Empire did not reign in Europe, a very real entity did in the Medieval World: the Catholic Church. Emperors and Kings kissed the ring of the Pope and constantly vied for Papal favor against one another. Completely disregarding a "fall" of Rome is incorrect and bad scholarship, I feel. There was a clear fall of Rome and although you may argue it only lasted a couple of hundred years or so, there definitely was a fall. The result was a cultured Germanic people that spread that culture throughout Europe. Once they, too, were transformed into Christians, Europe never looked the same.
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Offline Ramesis

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2020, 01:36:14 PM »
There was a multitude of reasons for the fall of Rome.

I really don't mean this as a troll or my attacking of Christians BUT I believe that a major contributing factor to the decline and actual
fall of the Roman Empire began when the Roman legions began to fill with soldiers other than actual Romans AND when Constantine "legalized" Christianity and thus caused Roma to become "relatively" more
compassionate
The strength of the pre-Christian Rome was derived, I my opinion, from their lack of compassion and their willingness to destroy all
in the way... an example is the Punic War with Carthage

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Offline Gman

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2020, 03:50:33 PM »
Quote
The beginning of the end, for me, was Commodus.

I know it's a very popular opinion, but I do wonder if Commodus was just a symptom, an indicator of where things may move towards, more than an actual force of negative change himself.

Severus' accomplishments post Commodus make this more evident IMO.  After the year of the five emperors, the year after Commodus,  Severus seized power from 193 until his death from disease in 211.  Nearly 20 years after Commodus, he left the Roman Empire in much better shape, arguably better shape than it had been in for decades.  Shored up the Western Provinces, invaded and defeated the Parthians in the East, sacking their cap city. He pushed out and gained more Roman control in Arabia, Africa, and Britain.  He strengthened the Roman military as well, adding more legions, and greatly increasing pay, in addition to a very large one time bonus given to every soldier.  He also was the first to permanently station troops/legions inside of Italy.  And to Ramesis point, wasn't exactly "kind" to the Christians either.  (Watch out on your first Point Ramesis, lest you be also labelled "racissss").

All of this was done many years after Commodus.  Commodus may have been the beginning of the end, but it took 5 or 6 further emperors, and another 2 decades for that beginning, and IMO until the third century crisis yet another 20+ years later, to truly start.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 03:52:39 PM by Gman »

Offline perdue3

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2020, 05:41:58 PM »
Sure. But, if you were asked to draw a line where you feel the end of Rome began and where the decline started, that line would be Commodus for me.
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Offline oboe

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2020, 12:08:58 PM »
Have any of you read “Storm Before the Storm” by M Duncan?   It’s one of the titles on Roman History available at my local library...

I’ve enjoyed following this thread.  A while ago I read a book on the fall of Rome but can’t for the life of me remember the title or who wrote it.  All I remember is he currently teaches at the university level, in the U.S.

EDIT: I think the book I read was “Mortal Republic” by Edward Watts - he teaches at UC San Diego..
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 12:16:34 PM by oboe »

Offline AKKuya

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2020, 04:01:45 PM »
Sure. But, if you were asked to draw a line where you feel the end of Rome began and where the decline started, that line would be Commodus for me.

After the slave revolt started by Spartacus, that's when Rome became vulnerable.
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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2020, 04:04:49 PM »
I think it's fairly safe to say that the Roman leadership transformed itself into the Roman Catholic empire as they saw the strategic opportunity to unite the religious organizations under one dogmatic canon. Quite brilliant if you ask me - there is more power under religion than under political rule. Caesars became less powerful than "I Sommi Pontefici Romani" (The Supreme Pontiffs of Rome). The question is, who was the first Pope that had more power than Caesar?  And which Caesar was it to bring in the main pagan religions under one Christian god?

That is also fascinating history of the Roman empire.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 04:06:33 PM by Mister Fork »
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2020, 08:32:40 PM »
Have any of you read “Storm Before the Storm” by M Duncan?   It’s one of the titles on Roman History available at my local library...

I’ve enjoyed following this thread.  A while ago I read a book on the fall of Rome but can’t for the life of me remember the title or who wrote it.  All I remember is he currently teaches at the university level, in the U.S.

EDIT: I think the book I read was “Mortal Republic” by Edward Watts - he teaches at UC San Diego..

Yes, I mentioned in a post earlier.

Duncan's The Storm Before the Storm was surprisingly good. I expected it to be "History Lite" but it was well done. Beard's SPQR is fantastic as it will remind you of what you have forgotten and certainly teach you things you did not know. It provides a wonderful foundation for Rome's history as an entity. From there, you can branch off into many different works on many different topics. I am quite interested in tactics, so I have spent a lot of time reading about that part of Rome's history.

This was in response to SysError's mentioning of Duncan's podcast.
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Offline oboe

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Re: Emperor Commodus
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2020, 10:45:26 PM »
Thanks, Perdue3.  No idea how I missed that.