Author Topic: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY  (Read 26110 times)

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #225 on: April 16, 2020, 11:07:40 PM »
I totally understand what you are saying, but I am not gonna risk my wife, my kids or my grandkids to prove a point.



Another way to analyze a problem when the evidence doesn't lend itself to a trivial decision, is to instead flip it around and analyze the costs of being wrong.

If I put a round in a six shot revolver and spin the cylinder and put it to my head, there is only a 16.666% chance I'll blow my brains out. 

I'll spend a dollar on a lotto ticket that has a 16% chance of winning all day long!  But I won't play Russian Roulette with the same odds because the cost of being wrong is so much higher. 

Estimates from epidemiological modelers at the CDC projected possible deaths from COVID-19 of 2.2 million Americans (Assuming no mitigating interventions).

Various people on the internet claim this quarantine will throw us in to a vast, civilization crushing depression.  I've not seen them provide evidence.  As far as I know there is not a technical definition of a depression, unlike a recession.  (Well, the colloquial definition is that a recession is when your neighbor loses his job; a depression is when you lose yours.   ;) )

Generally I would define a depression as a serious recession that probably lasts 3-4 years.  I don't not believe that this will last that long.  If we get a vaccine in 12-18 months or therapeutics even sooner that reduce the risk of this thing to the level of an appendicitis, then I think the recovery will be quite swift.  There is no structural damage.  We are not rebuilding factories razed to the ground after a war.

Even if it was a depression, in my opinion, that does not equate to millions of Americans dead.  Depression in America have been painful and life disrupting for sure.  But I have never seen evidence it has lead to mass casualties.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/great-depression-had-little-effect-on-death-rates-46713514/

So when push comes to shove, I would tilt the decision balance toward accepting economic damage we can repair, against loss of human lives that will be gone forever.  At least at the levels that not having quarantined would have probably led to. 

I'm not saying it has to be maintained forever.  I've outlined, in a previous post, a set of perfectly reasonable exit criteria that I think would allow us to relax quarantine responsibly.  But we needed this emergency intervention to catch our balance.  And eventually the critical rate will climb back up to threaten overloading our health system and we'll have to do it again. Probably in the Fall sometime.

 :salute


« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 11:20:02 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #226 on: April 16, 2020, 11:53:24 PM »

Quote
They accused the government of having failed to draw up a proper strategy, pointing out that the mortality rate in Sweden is now around double that of most of its Nordic neighbours.

Quote
Epidemiology professor Bo Lundback of the University of Gothenburg, slammed the Swedish government as naive and irresponsible.

He said "The authorities and the government stupidly did not believe that the epidemic would reach Sweden at all.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11406152/sweden-highest-coronavirus-deaths-one-day-country-refused-lockdown/


« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 11:57:33 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #227 on: April 17, 2020, 12:14:58 AM »


Another way to analyze a problem when the evidence doesn't lend itself to a trivial decision, is to instead flip it around and analyze the costs of being wrong.

If I put a round in a six shot revolver and spin the cylinder and put it to my head, there is only a 16.666% chance I'll blow my brains out. 

I'll spend a dollar on a lotto ticket that has a 16% chance of winning all day long!  But I won't play Russian Roulette with the same odds because the cost of being wrong is so much higher. 

Estimates from epidemiological modelers at the CDC projected possible deaths from COVID-19 of 2.2 million Americans (Assuming no mitigating interventions).

Various people on the internet claim this quarantine will throw us in to a vast, civilization crushing depression.  I've not seen them provide evidence.  As far as I know there is not a technical definition of a depression, unlike a recession.  (Well, the colloquial definition is that a recession is when your neighbor loses his job; a depression is when you lose yours.   ;) )

Generally I would define a depression as a serious recession that probably lasts 3-4 years.  I don't not believe that this will last that long.  If we get a vaccine in 12-18 months or therapeutics even sooner that reduce the risk of this thing to the level of an appendicitis, then I think the recovery will be quite swift.  There is no structural damage.  We are not rebuilding factories razed to the ground after a war.

Even if it was a depression, in my opinion, that does not equate to millions of Americans dead.  Depression in America have been painful and life disrupting for sure.  But I have never seen evidence it has lead to mass casualties.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/great-depression-had-little-effect-on-death-rates-46713514/

So when push comes to shove, I would tilt the decision balance toward accepting economic damage we can repair, against loss of human lives that will be gone forever.  At least at the levels that not having quarantined would have probably led to. 

I'm not saying it has to be maintained forever.  I've outlined, in a previous post, a set of perfectly reasonable exit criteria that I think would allow us to relax quarantine responsibly.  But we needed this emergency intervention to catch our balance.  And eventually the critical rate will climb back up to threaten overloading our health system and we'll have to do it again. Probably in the Fall sometime.

 :salute

no dude, i lost my youngest one and my oldest one.  point to me which child is worth it?



senp
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #228 on: April 17, 2020, 12:25:50 AM »
I was agreeing with you.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 12:47:25 AM by CptTrips »
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Offline SysError

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #229 on: April 17, 2020, 04:36:18 AM »
...
My main point is that I have not seen any data that supports the conclusion that the stay-at-home orders had any positive effect. that's not the same as saying don't take any precautions many of the precautions as we have taken I agree with.

HiTech.
    :confused:

Do you need that information in a spreadsheet?


Here is story about what has happened because of a disbelief in the effectiveness of stay-at-home orders.

Smithfield may have infected the entire country.  (Just a guess).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52311877


BTW, As a side note.

You should not only treat the outside packaging of meat products with care, but also with the inside.  COOK all meats!  I understand that precooked hams sold like mad.  Do not eat the stuff cold.  Heat it up in an oven first please.
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Offline SysError

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #230 on: April 17, 2020, 04:41:03 AM »
I started this topic to discuss COVID-19 PREVENTION ISSUES ONLY

If you want to talk about who started it, who failed to see it coming, who has the cure, how many are going to die, why Jesus Christ is going to come down from the heavens above and just take care of business, fine, just start your own topic.

------------------

Well it lasted longer than I originally had guessed it would....

Getting back on track.


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/health-51637561/coronavirus-watch-how-germs-spread


Keep washing your hands!!!   :old:
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Offline SysError

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #231 on: April 17, 2020, 04:45:05 AM »
"Coronavirus symptoms: What are they and how do I protect myself?"

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51048366


BYW:  Just saw that this IS my 1,000 post!!!    :x :x :cheers: :cheers: :banana: :banana: :banana: :airplane: :airplane: :aok :) :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 05:56:03 AM by SysError »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #232 on: April 17, 2020, 04:52:12 AM »
I would have less issue with the quarantine if they were not throwing money at them.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #233 on: April 17, 2020, 07:02:36 AM »
Trips

So you don't think that this quarantine if extended as some say has to happen would result in a depression like we have never seen?

You don't think printing trillions of dollars out of thin air is going to make the dollar  useless?

Do you not think before that taxes will be raised to historic highs in an attempt to head that off?

You do realize given the unstable environment this country ran on its best day it wouldn't take hardly anything to have the less civilized showing their true colors?

This isn't 1930s America. We do not have the class nor respect we had then. Civil unrest is a stone's throw away as America sinks.

The young and healthy need to go back to work ASAP

The old, those comprised and those they interact with need to take precautions for their own health safety

As what I can tell we have hospital beds empty as the numbers are not as high as the worst thought

Sorry but IMHO a great depression would result in more overall death and misery than if we just tried to get back to somewhat normal as soon the infections flattened- happing now.

We can't be responsible if stupid people don't realize they can't go to a concert and then go visit their 80 year old grandparents

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Offline redcatcherb412

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #234 on: April 17, 2020, 09:51:09 AM »
See rule #14
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 12:50:17 PM by hitech »
Ground Pounders ...

Offline SysError

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #235 on: April 17, 2020, 10:33:12 AM »
See rule #14
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 12:50:29 PM by hitech »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #236 on: April 17, 2020, 10:39:29 AM »
Trips

So you don't think that this quarantine if extended as some say has to happen would result in a depression like we have never seen?

I covered that in my post; did you not read it?

I don' see the point of re-typing it, but I'll add that if we had let 2.2 million Americans die from this thing you also risk economic destruction and social destabilization.

And lifting quarantine right this moment, isn't going to snap the economy back anyway.  I think some people have a delusion about how lifting quarantine will make all this go away.
 Consumers aren't going to pack the malls, or pile into crowded movie theaters, stand in long lines face to face at Six Flags, or squeeze into packed restaurants.  You can't wear mask while eating at a restaurant.  Not to mention the Guatemalan in the kitchen breathing and coughing on your food.  He wasn't feeling well but his crap job doesn't have paid sick  leave, so he decided to just power through.  But the food sure looks good being carried out on that platter past dozens of other tables and through the clouds of respiratory mist from their talking and laughing. 
 
Sorry, I don't see any trivial path through this that doesn't involve some some level of deaths and economic destruction.  The best chance we had of minimizing either would be to have done like South Korea and jump in with both feet, war-time level mobilization of testing, contact tracing and isolating super-spreaders early.  They haven't had enforce across the boards shutdowns.

We chose not to act early and decisively.  We will have a bigger bill to pay, and once an exponential curve gets a head of steam, it takes much more dramatic actions to alter it's trajectory.
 
:salute





« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 10:42:27 AM by CptTrips »
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Offline SysError

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #237 on: April 17, 2020, 11:00:55 AM »
I do not know if this issue is a re-post or not.  But something to keep an eye on.

Short take away maybe that even recovered patients may need to still be careful around others and watch their own health.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/17/836747242/in-south-korea-a-growing-number-of-covid-19-patients-test-positive-after-recover
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Covid 19 Prevention discussion ONLY
« Reply #238 on: April 17, 2020, 11:06:12 AM »


Quote
The bump in coronavirus cases is most pronounced in states without stay at home orders. Oklahoma saw a 53% increase in cases over the past week, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. Over same time, cases jumped 60% in Arkansas, 74% in Nebraska, and 82% in Iowa. South Dakota saw a whopping 205% spike.
The remaining states, North Dakota, Utah and Wyoming each saw an increase in cases, but more in line with other places that have stay-at-home orders. And all of those numbers may very well undercount the total cases, given a persistent lack of testing across the US.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/17/politics/republican-governors-stay-at-home-coronavirus/index.html

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Offline SysError

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