Boeing 737 Max

[Busher]

Well Fess, all I can suggest is that you make sure all future travel plans for you and your family are on Airbus jets.

Some of your bullet points like
Boeing also withheld knowledge that a pilot would need to diagnose
and respond to a “stabilizer runaway” condition caused by an erroneous MCAS activation in 10
seconds or less, or risk catastrophic consequences.
are ridiculous. 10 seconds is an eternity for memory actionable items like "stab trim runaway". Imagine a jet experiencing engine failure at rotation.. "OK Candidate, you have up to 10 seconds to step on the rudder".
I do agree and have said before that I believe Boeing gave the MCAS far more output force than it should have.
But what was not addressed by the FAA, Sully or apparently any of the investigators are the reported ADC snags that should have grounded the airplane. As I tried to explain that a failure of an ADC renders all of the airplane's automation inoperative and the resulting failures to act; for example to reduce thrust were important contributors to the accident.

[Toad]

Here's a simple question for Fess and Semp:

If a 737Max experiences an AOA malfunction that triggers MCAS can the aircraft return to base and land without loss of life?

Yes or No please.

[guncrasher]

no, would you like to know more?


semp

[Toad]

I'll wait until Fess gives a yes/no. Thanks.

I'll put you, Semp, down in the AOA malfunction / MCAS trigger = Renders the aircraft incapable of flight column.

[guncrasher]

I'll wait until Fess gives a yes/no. Thanks.

I'll put you, Semp, down in the AOA malfunction / MCAS trigger = Renders the aircraft incapable of flight column.

well since you asked a specific question.  I believe the answer is no. if you had asked no/yes and explain why,  you must likely would have said no too. maybe it's because i don't know all pilot lingo or perhaps because when I reply it's based on what i read to be accurate.

anyway i believe it's a trick question. and both yes and no would be accurate answers. but you only asked for one, so i chose no.

semp

[FESS67]

Well Fess, all I can suggest is that you make sure all future travel plans for you and your family are on Airbus jets.

Some of your bullet points like
Boeing also withheld knowledge that a pilot would need to diagnose
and respond to a “stabilizer runaway” condition caused by an erroneous MCAS activation in 10
seconds or less, or risk catastrophic consequences.
are ridiculous. 10 seconds is an eternity for memory actionable items like "stab trim runaway". Imagine a jet experiencing engine failure at rotation.. "OK Candidate, you have up to 10 seconds to step on the rudder".
I do agree and have said before that I believe Boeing gave the MCAS far more output force than it should have.
But what was not addressed by the FAA, Sully or apparently any of the investigators are the reported ADC snags that should have grounded the airplane. As I tried to explain that a failure of an ADC renders all of the airplane's automation inoperative and the resulting failures to act; for example to reduce thrust were important contributors to the accident.

You do understand that those ridiculous words were not mine right?  They came straight from the report and from Boeing.

Your last sentence is perhaps more in line with my sentiment in this discussion.  There are important contributors to the accident and we should not seek to place the blame at the feet of the pilots when other actors were in play.

[FESS67]

Here's a simple question for Fess and Semp:

If a 737Max experiences an AOA malfunction that triggers MCAS can the aircraft return to base and land without loss of life?

Yes or No please.

You oversimplify the issue at hand and seek to prove a point with that oversimplification.  The answer cannot be a simple yes or no because it depends on a number of conditions.  IMO key factors to consider would be when in the flight this occurred, was it in isolation or were there a number tasks competing for attention, how did the crew respond.

You believe this is all on the crew, I think that is unfair.

[guncrasher]

I'll wait until Fess gives a yes/no. Thanks.

I'll put you, Semp, down in the AOA malfunction / MCAS trigger = Renders the aircraft incapable of flight column.

actually my answer was not based on that.  you posted it in a way that the correct answer would be yes/ no/ we can't prove it/disprove it.  any of this i believe would be right based on what i know and how you phrased your question.

semp

[Busher]

You do understand that those ridiculous words were not mine right?  They came straight from the report and from Boeing.

Your last sentence is perhaps more in line with my sentiment in this discussion.  There are important contributors to the accident and we should not seek to place the blame at the feet of the pilots when other actors were in play.

Let's be clear, I have no intent to set "blame". It does nothing to advance flight safety. That is why North American pilot write Flight Safety Reports even upon themselves and quite often for might seem like the most innocuous event. Anything to recognize and prevent issues, be they technical or personal, that may affect safety in the future.
All I have been trying to stress is that a non-airworthy 737Max was taken into the air and a combination of that failure combined with others killed people.
No where has anyone asked why the airplane with an open grounding snag was flown... I would like to know if the pilots received insufficient training on the MEL or maybe they faced job reprisal if they refused to fly it. Either way they were set to face handling issues that they did not handle.

[Toad]

It's not a difficult or complicated question.

If a 737Max is airborne at any phase of flight...takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, landing...does an AOA failure coupled with an MCAS activation render the aircraft incapable of flight?

Is the aircraft doomed to crash no matter what? Is it impossible to fly the aircraft to a safe landing?

[guncrasher]

It's not a difficult or complicated question.

If a 737Max is airborne at any phase of flight...takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, landing...does an AOA failure coupled with an MCAS activation render the aircraft incapable of flight?

Is the aircraft doomed to crash no matter what? Is it impossible to fly the aircraft to a safe landing?

again you are posting a question where the only answer acceptable to you is the plane can land.

but what if the pilot went outside for a smoke and the copilot has a stewardess on his lap?

semp

[FESS67]

It's not a difficult or complicated question.

If a 737Max is airborne at any phase of flight...takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, landing...does an AOA failure coupled with an MCAS activation render the aircraft incapable of flight?

Is the aircraft doomed to crash no matter what? Is it impossible to fly the aircraft to a safe landing?

Evidence appears to indicate that it could render the aircraft incapable of sustained flight resulting in two crashes.  There was no warning light indicating the erroneous AOA readings and the nose of the aircraft was repeatedly being pushed down by MCAS.  The pilots corrected the issue with the controls on the column but MCAS resets and the issue repeats itself.  They had no knowledge of MCAS, there was no training on it, there was no documentation on it.  They did not know they were dealing with a runaway trim issue as it did not present as such (I will have to go find where I read that, do not have it to hand).

In the Ethiopian crash the pilots reportedly followed the Boeing guidelines however were still unable to prevent MCAS from operating.

Let me play your game.  Yes or no.

Had MCAS not been installed on those aircraft would they have safely flown to their destinations?

[Toad]

Again, it's simple.

For example, if a wing falls off an aircraft in flight, is it then incapable of flight? Yes, it is.

In this case, if a 737Max experiences an AOA malfunction that triggers an MCAS activation is there any aircraft related reason the aircraft is incapable of maintaining flight?

Semp, I am not positing any unusual situation where the crew is not at duty stations. It's simple: can the aircraft still fly? Are all the systems that allow an aircraft to maintain flight still available and operational? Yes, there is what we call an ABNORMAL in progress but that is all.

Fess, can an aircraft fly without AOA indications? Without an AOA disagreement light? (BTW, the Ethiopian pilots DID NOT follow the Boeing guidelines. Unless you think never reducing power from takeoff thrust and overspeeding the aircraft in a steep climb and turning the Stab Trim Cutout switches back on is Boeing guidelines.)

Sure, without MCAS the flight could have been made safely.

Now to you Fess: Had the MCAS system been correctly disabled after the AOA malfunction, would Lion/Ethiopian have made a safe return?

[guncrasher]

well I did answer correctly based on how you phrased the question. again i don't know pilot lingo and my answer is again no. i actually believe you can't even take off much less land.

i could have explained why but you only take yes/no.


semp

[Shuffler]

Give up Toad. They have no idea.