Author Topic: Maps are way too big  (Read 10029 times)

Offline popeye

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2020, 01:55:40 PM »
Planes will fly across the water to change your intended design. People will be people.

Say it isn't so!!!    :D
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Offline Arlo

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Maps aren't nearly big enough
« Reply #106 on: August 05, 2020, 02:02:24 PM »
The Main Arena should be a realistic map of the entire world. Fuel burn should be set at 1.0 and scale should be 1 for 1. AI should be incorporated throughout it but with randomly generated CPIDs (Frakko, MrPug, Chafman, 8675309, etc.) possibly even reviving CPIDs of players who have passed on - but active player CPIDs cannot be replicated. Plane models should be geographically limited: German aircraft can only up from German controlled territory. Japanese aircraft can only be upped from Japanese controlled territory. British and American aircraft can be upped from British or American territory if American or British logistics have been established there. Italian aircraft can up from Italian controlled territory or German controlled territory if Italian logistics have been established there. Soviet aircraft can up from Soviet controlled territory and lend lease aircraft can be upped there, as well. There are theaters established: Western Europe, Eastern Europe, The Mediterranean, North Africa, CBI, South Pacific, North Pacific. There are new theaters that can be established: West Coast North America, East Coast North America, Central America, South America. If you've read this far then you get a star. Aces High is fine, as is.  :D

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2020, 02:04:11 PM »
Say it isn't so!!!    :D

I so wish I could.  :aok
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Offline Baine

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2020, 08:16:51 PM »
Now you have me very curious, exactly what type of game play do I try force on threw the rules?

HiTech
HiTech, Thanks for asking, and my apologies for not answering sooner. I've been playing and not checking out the message boards, so I'm sorry if I seemed to ignore your post.

You're a smart guy, so the fact that there are eight pages of comments on a post titled "The Maps are Way Too Big" is obviously the most glaring answer to your question. The dozen or so pages of "Let's Write the Future of AH" also shows a community worried about the game's direction.

This is a topic that's been subject of conversation since before I left AH five or so years ago. The fact that it's still being talked about is an indication that you don't particularly see a problem here and don't want to change things no matter how low player numbers go.

 That's your prerogative, but if you want new subscribers, (and I really don't think you care either way) you have to realize that spreading out bases and the amount of time between flights prevents new players from ever developing the air combat skills needed to become long-time clients. Time flown between fights is a huge determinant of fun in a game. Any developer knows that. You've decided that's not an issue for AH. No one is going to continue flying four or five minutes so some old guy who has been playing this game for 10-20 years can bounce them and feel good about it. Each time that happens you've made an old coot happy, but you've lost a new client - most likely someone who has been playing other online games, wanted to up their game to even more realism, but was defeated by AH's desire to cater to the desires of its small and shrinking base for easy meat. Short flights give folks the opportunity to develop and the fun to keep them interested. But you already know that.

I think about my own experience. I was one of your first subscribers. I loved playing AH and would spend hours jumping on, getting shot down and doing it again. I still remember the first time I dove on a B-17, shot out its left engines and saw the wing dip. No other game at the time offered such realism, I was hooked. But even with that realism, it was an exciting game to play. Bases were close together, dog fights were many and Tank Town was a place I could spend hours having fun (and subscribers in a one-sector area easily outnumbered all those in the entire game today). I belong to a bomber squad. When I wanted to climb to altitude, I could start a few bases back - no one stopped me - but no one also prevented me from flying half a sector to try out an A6M2 without worrying that I was wasting my time because I'd soon get lit up like a candle. I got good, I had a lot of fun, and I told people they had to try this game.

 Once I learned what I was doing, I spent a couple of months trying to boost my ranking, flying smart and taking every advantage. It was fun for a while, but then life got complicated and I just wanted simple, easy to access fun.

Yet, somehow, the game decided that furballs weren't what was wanted and maps increasingly became spread out. Maybe you didn't design the maps, but you allowed maps with widely spaced bases to dominate the game and things became boring for a majority of players. I would imagine HTC could create its own maps, right?

As maps became boring Numbers shrank. I eventually decided that playing AH was pretty equivalent to my rush-hour commute - long periods of boredom punctuated by short periods of excitement. The monthly tolls were also about the same.

You apparently based your decisions on a small cadre of players who had hours to spend in arenas (and spouting off on forums about the need to contain "the horde") instead of considering what would appeal to folks who had a limited time or interest in the game but could develop into regulars. Newbies, and folks who work and don't have all day to spend flying to find some excitement, want the option of jumping online, getting a jolt of adrenaline and enjoying themselves. That has increasingly become "not the AH way." I'd say prove me wrong, but the multiple forum posts about this would lead me to believe you are fooling yourself. That says a lot about HTC's priorities for the game and the players it wishes to retain vs the players it wishes to attract. So it's no surprise finding new players is difficult.


Folks are going to say "How do you know, you've never developed a game." But I was here when numbers were high and you had to divide arenas due to numbers exceeding server capacity. I've seen what's happened. Something went wrong somewhere.

Another example of a rule that discourages players is your insistence to clinging to ENY. That thing has never, ever, ever encouraged players to stick with Aces High or to even change countries. I get what you are trying to do, but would point out that the implementation of ENY rules came at what was roughly the highpoint for AH online participation (note I don't say subscribers. I imagine it took a while for old die-hards like me to finally decide to throw in the towel.) It was all downhill from there. ENY doesn't work. I'd love to see you provide stats that prove me wrong - X number or percentage of players change countries when ENY kicks -stuff that you undoubtedly have access to  - but to the best of my knowledge you have never shown us that. I suspect that's because you value your vision for ENY more than you value the folks leaving the game because of it. Something with ENY isn't working. If you want to attract new players, admit it and move on.

 If you want an example of how silly ENY is, take a look at my recent experience. I dropped AH when I started playing other, high-fidelity offline games that let me Russian into fights with my computer quickly. I then moved to their free online arenas. It was fun, but (I have to admit) a constant go up, get shot down, go up again, also gets boring. This is where AH can find its niche, if you really want to appeal to both sides of the equation. Having kept in touch with squadmates, I wanted to reconnect and earlier this month signed up for a new account. I was immediately thrown into an online arena as a Bish. I tried to get up to defend a base being pounded, but couldn't get a plane built before 1941. As an old AH pro, I realized that ENY rules had kicked in, although I wondered why the server dumped me into the most populated country on the map. If I'd been a newbie, I would have been wondering why I could only fly a P-40 while P-51s were vulching me with abandon. I would have left and never come back.

HiTech, the fact you asked me to identify rules that discourage players makes me think you really don't care. This is all stuff that's been discussed ad infinitum since at least 2010. Nothing, whatsoever, has changed. Yet you act like "What? There's a problem?" Seriously? As I said earlier, I imagine you are a smart guy, so please imagine we are smart, too. You might know how you'd like your game to be played. That's fine. People know how they want to play a game. If they are forced into playing a way they don't want to play, they leave. That's what's been happening for what, 10 years now? (If you have another explanation for the precipitous decline in subscribers, please share). If you want the two visions to coincide, you need to be willing to work to make those visions coincide for both the folks who still work for your company and the long-time players who have invested a lot of time and interest into making AH succeed.

Doing the math, I imagine you are getting close to retirement and are hoping to just hold onto the subscribers you have to keep things going until you decide to pull the plug or sell. More power to you. I can't blame you. But you asked, so I let you know what I thought. In my business, as I imagine in yours, the saying "Numbers tell the story" applies. When circulation declined, we adapted and actually clawed back subscribers. For AH, the numbers tell me you are still at a point where you are comfortable and figure you can hold on as long as necessary and so are unwilling to rethink anything. I get it but I figured I'd take 15 minutes or so to answer your question. In my business, we also say electronic ink costs nothing. You asked, so I replied.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 08:57:01 PM by Baine »

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2020, 08:51:29 PM »
Wall of text and no answer.
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Offline Baine

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2020, 08:59:35 PM »
Wall of text and no answer.
Yeah Shuffler, but I've only been back a couple of days and I already know you and know you read every word. So it wasn't wasted.

Offline Spikes

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2020, 09:02:28 PM »
Wall of text and no answer.
Actually, he did.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #112 on: August 05, 2020, 09:04:19 PM »
Wall of text and no answer.

Not quite fair.  He identified these two age-old controversies:

- Should the game cater to furballers or war-winners?  This accounts for the first half of his post.

- Is ENY a good thing or a bad thing?  This is the second half.

Based on his viewpoint, the answers to these questions point to HTC's "restriction" on game play.

And up until the end, he was respectful about the way he phrased his analysis.

- oldman

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #113 on: August 05, 2020, 09:05:38 PM »
just read your post Baine

As a point of interest..from my comprehension of your text and the game.

The thing that has changed most is peoples expectation due to the swamp of games out there

yes I do think some of the maps are too big
Yes ENY is a bit of a bug bear (Not so much for me but It is for others so to a degree it effects my game )

However I believe the rest of what you said all comes down to personal preference and personal fortitude
I may not have been here since the dawn of time but I was for the hay day.... and boy did i get trounced... I just kept upping and slowly got better with help from others...
These things haven't really changed..The lower numbers just expound what was already there....what has changed is peoples fortitude... the instant gratification... and the buy the gratification crowds now run amok in the industry... I would hazard a guess that 60% of the new people that try this actually give it away due to not being awesome instantly... it is a hard pill to swallow to not be instantly good at a game...especially when you think you are the bees' knees at gaming...

Yes the long flights are probably a bit of a problem however a short distance can be just as demeaning... in this case you don't even have the opportunity to gather enough E ... with AH you don't get the magic air spawn to instant speed and alt...perhaps this is a problem too...

In some cases the attitude of the community is less than inviting however there are far more positive people who are willing to help than not... unfortunately people are drawn more to drama and as such focus too much on the negative aspects and forgo the positive helpful offers..

Much of the number retention comes down to working a way to have new people...even those who think they know it all... (perhaps there can be some kind of tier system I don't know)..... where basics can be covered before getting stuck in to an arena with basically a bunch of guys who have been playing the game for so long they can go make a coffee and kill you....It would be no different to any of us going to a new similar game and expecting we would destroy the guys who knew the dynamics of the game better..



« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 09:13:10 PM by SPKmes »

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #114 on: August 05, 2020, 10:09:13 PM »
Not quite fair.  He identified these two age-old controversies:

- Should the game cater to furballers or war-winners?  This accounts for the first half of his post.

- Is ENY a good thing or a bad thing?  This is the second half.

Based on his viewpoint, the answers to these questions point to HTC's "restriction" on game play.

And up until the end, he was respectful about the way he phrased his analysis.

- oldman
He made a statement. HiTech asked him what rules he was referring to.

No answer.... just a wall of text.

So what rules?
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #115 on: August 05, 2020, 10:15:06 PM »
HiTech, Thanks for asking, and my apologies for not answering sooner. I've been playing and not checking out the message boards, so I'm sorry if I seemed to ignore your post.

You're a smart guy, so the fact that there are eight pages of comments on a post titled "The Maps are Way Too Big" is obviously the most glaring answer to your question. The dozen or so pages of "Let's Write the Future of AH" also shows a community worried about the game's direction.

This is a topic that's been subject of conversation since before I left AH five or so years ago. The fact that it's still being talked about is an indication that you don't particularly see a problem here and don't want to change things no matter how low player numbers go.

 That's your prerogative, but if you want new subscribers, (and I really don't think you care either way) you have to realize that spreading out bases and the amount of time between flights prevents new players from ever developing the air combat skills needed to become long-time clients. Time flown between fights is a huge determinant of fun in a game. Any developer knows that. You've decided that's not an issue for AH. No one is going to continue flying four or five minutes so some old guy who has been playing this game for 10-20 years can bounce them and feel good about it. Each time that happens you've made an old coot happy, but you've lost a new client - most likely someone who has been playing other online games, wanted to up their game to even more realism, but was defeated by AH's desire to cater to the desires of its small and shrinking base for easy meat. Short flights give folks the opportunity to develop and the fun to keep them interested. But you already know that.

I think about my own experience. I was one of your first subscribers. I loved playing AH and would spend hours jumping on, getting shot down and doing it again. I still remember the first time I dove on a B-17, shot out its left engines and saw the wing dip. No other game at the time offered such realism, I was hooked. But even with that realism, it was an exciting game to play. Bases were close together, dog fights were many and Tank Town was a place I could spend hours having fun (and subscribers in a one-sector area easily outnumbered all those in the entire game today). I belong to a bomber squad. When I wanted to climb to altitude, I could start a few bases back - no one stopped me - but no one also prevented me from flying half a sector to try out an A6M2 without worrying that I was wasting my time because I'd soon get lit up like a candle. I got good, I had a lot of fun, and I told people they had to try this game.

 Once I learned what I was doing, I spent a couple of months trying to boost my ranking, flying smart and taking every advantage. It was fun for a while, but then life got complicated and I just wanted simple, easy to access fun.

Yet, somehow, the game decided that furballs weren't what was wanted and maps increasingly became spread out. Maybe you didn't design the maps, but you allowed maps with widely spaced bases to dominate the game and things became boring for a majority of players. I would imagine HTC could create its own maps, right?

As maps became boring Numbers shrank. I eventually decided that playing AH was pretty equivalent to my rush-hour commute - long periods of boredom punctuated by short periods of excitement. The monthly tolls were also about the same.

You apparently based your decisions on a small cadre of players who had hours to spend in arenas (and spouting off on forums about the need to contain "the horde") instead of considering what would appeal to folks who had a limited time or interest in the game but could develop into regulars. Newbies, and folks who work and don't have all day to spend flying to find some excitement, want the option of jumping online, getting a jolt of adrenaline and enjoying themselves. That has increasingly become "not the AH way." I'd say prove me wrong, but the multiple forum posts about this would lead me to believe you are fooling yourself. That says a lot about HTC's priorities for the game and the players it wishes to retain vs the players it wishes to attract. So it's no surprise finding new players is difficult.


Folks are going to say "How do you know, you've never developed a game." But I was here when numbers were high and you had to divide arenas due to numbers exceeding server capacity. I've seen what's happened. Something went wrong somewhere.

Another example of a rule that discourages players is your insistence to clinging to ENY. That thing has never, ever, ever encouraged players to stick with Aces High or to even change countries. I get what you are trying to do, but would point out that the implementation of ENY rules came at what was roughly the highpoint for AH online participation (note I don't say subscribers. I imagine it took a while for old die-hards like me to finally decide to throw in the towel.) It was all downhill from there. ENY doesn't work. I'd love to see you provide stats that prove me wrong - X number or percentage of players change countries when ENY kicks -stuff that you undoubtedly have access to  - but to the best of my knowledge you have never shown us that. I suspect that's because you value your vision for ENY more than you value the folks leaving the game because of it. Something with ENY isn't working. If you want to attract new players, admit it and move on.

 If you want an example of how silly ENY is, take a look at my recent experience. I dropped AH when I started playing other, high-fidelity offline games that let me Russian into fights with my computer quickly. I then moved to their free online arenas. It was fun, but (I have to admit) a constant go up, get shot down, go up again, also gets boring. This is where AH can find its niche, if you really want to appeal to both sides of the equation. Having kept in touch with squadmates, I wanted to reconnect and earlier this month signed up for a new account. I was immediately thrown into an online arena as a Bish. I tried to get up to defend a base being pounded, but couldn't get a plane built before 1941. As an old AH pro, I realized that ENY rules had kicked in, although I wondered why the server dumped me into the most populated country on the map. If I'd been a newbie, I would have been wondering why I could only fly a P-40 while P-51s were vulching me with abandon. I would have left and never come back.

HiTech, the fact you asked me to identify rules that discourage players makes me think you really don't care. This is all stuff that's been discussed ad infinitum since at least 2010. Nothing, whatsoever, has changed. Yet you act like "What? There's a problem?" Seriously? As I said earlier, I imagine you are a smart guy, so please imagine we are smart, too. You might know how you'd like your game to be played. That's fine. People know how they want to play a game. If they are forced into playing a way they don't want to play, they leave. That's what's been happening for what, 10 years now? (If you have another explanation for the precipitous decline in subscribers, please share). If you want the two visions to coincide, you need to be willing to work to make those visions coincide for both the folks who still work for your company and the long-time players who have invested a lot of time and interest into making AH succeed.

Doing the math, I imagine you are getting close to retirement and are hoping to just hold onto the subscribers you have to keep things going until you decide to pull the plug or sell. More power to you. I can't blame you. But you asked, so I let you know what I thought. In my business, as I imagine in yours, the saying "Numbers tell the story" applies. When circulation declined, we adapted and actually clawed back subscribers. For AH, the numbers tell me you are still at a point where you are comfortable and figure you can hold on as long as necessary and so are unwilling to rethink anything. I get it but I figured I'd take 15 minutes or so to answer your question. In my business, we also say electronic ink costs nothing. You asked, so I replied

I have left because of what you have took the time to write, I think you have a insight on to why he hasnt changed the game, he is a great guy and has a great foundation as far as the realism of the game, I loved the game back in the day and hung with it till I couldnt stand it anymore and I do wish he makes some changes but my money is on it is what it is i dont care.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 10:17:11 PM by Razorbak »

Offline Eagler

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #116 on: August 06, 2020, 06:31:07 AM »
Eagler,

I think the Spit Mk1 has just enough performance edge that "playground island" would soon become Spitfire Island (maybe not a bad thing).  I would have included the 109e, except it can load 250kg of grief for the nearby GVs.  Same goes for the P-40's.  It's difficult to select a small plane set with similar performance that can't grief the GVs.

On the other hand, no sense in limiting the plane set to something that won't get used.  Maybe 109F, Spit9, C.202, and La-5.   ???

I say add them.

Thanks again!

<S>

Eagler
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Offline Max

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #117 on: August 06, 2020, 07:18:51 AM »
Wall of text and no answer.

IMHO he hit several nails squarely on the head.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #118 on: August 06, 2020, 07:29:49 AM »
IMHO he hit several nails squarely on the head.

He mentioned no rules. He told HiTech that he set rules. HiTech would like to know what rules he was talking about.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Maps are way too big
« Reply #119 on: August 06, 2020, 08:54:34 AM »
Opening the Book of Dweeb all the way to the chapter of Sorta Revelational Stuff:

Blessed are the beech-makers for they shalt go above and beyond in making up why they are miserable and project that upon others. Because, well, they be social engineering experts now.  :old: