Author Topic: The Trojan Warhorse  (Read 3338 times)

Offline lyric1

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« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 01:03:10 AM by lyric1 »

Offline Greebo

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2021, 03:43:03 AM »
I have found a whole load of references to ANA 501 on the web, ANA colour charts and model paint swatches mostly. Here's the list I made of their RGB values:-

24/100/147
0/85/136
0/93/137
9/86/140
5/51/84
18/73/127

They vary quite a bit from each other but in all of them while there is more blue than green there is much more green than red. In other words they are all a blue/green colour just like the photos show, not the bright purer blue shown on that DCS skin.

Oboe I think you are getting too hung up on the colour name, just because something is called "True Blue" doesn't mean it is. All your colour balance altered photos still look closer to my colour than the DCS skin colour to me. I don't think the green aspect is because its in shadow either. I suspect the reason so many other secondary sources show a bright blue colour for this aircraft is a question of follow my leader. A modeller or skinner saw the colour on a profile and copied it, then someone copied him and so on. The more of these "references" there are the harder it is for anyone to buck the trend. The fact that its a prettier colour than mine doesn't hurt either.

What we really need is a photo of the colour that is not in shadow. As there doesn't seem to be a colour photo of an 86th FS aircraft like that maybe there is a post 43 photo of a trainer done in the blue fuselage/yellow wings scheme, which was the main use for the ANA 501 colour in WW2. This would need to be an actual WW2 photo though, I don't consider modern warbird colours any more reliable a guide than profiles, skins or models.


Offline oboe

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2021, 08:06:46 AM »
Yes, for as jaw-droppingly stunning as that DCS P-47 skin is, I don't think the tail color is correct - especially after playing around with the latest color photo Lyric found. 

No matter how much I try to tease the yellow out and lighten/brighten the overall image, the tail color doesn't appear to be as light/bright as ANA 501.    I would guess the DCS skinner read the documented "medium blue" or "light blue" for the tail, looked at existing profiles, and then chose a color that best represents medium or light blue to his eyes.   

I'm unable however, to get that color photo to corroborate his color choice, or even ANA 501, however I tweak it.  The real color of the tail appears to be quite a bit darker than ANA 501, but not as dark as Insignia Blue.   So I think you might be onto something with the idea of a field-mixed custom color blue for the tail.

There is the question of how much Green is present in the color.   None of the written documentation we have suggests there was enough green to be evident to the documenter - the color is merely listed as Light Blue or Medium Blue (which does leave open a pretty wide range of values).

One of the complaints about early color film is that it yellows as it ages, besides experiencing color fade and darkening.  And each of the component colors in the film can degrade at different rates, muddying the water further.    I think its possible that 'yellowing' of the film as it aged has introduced a bias in the blue tail color toward green, resulting in the dark blue-green or teal shade we see in the photo today.   But its beyond my crude Photoshop color adjustment skills to really test that theory.   No doubt someone with intricate knowledge of the aging characteristics of the film used and much more skill at restoring photos could achieve better results than I did. 

<S>!

Offline oboe

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2021, 08:15:38 AM »
Here's a color image of a Vultee BT-13 trainer, with pretty good sun illumination.   Note the sky color in the image, which could be a mixture of blue sky & white clouds, or perhaps grey/white clouds.  It has a yellowish-green tint to my eye.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 08:18:28 AM by oboe »

Offline Greebo

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2021, 09:34:22 AM »
I think the documentation isn't describing the colour as light blue but just saying the catalogue name of the colour that was used. USAAF Sea Green is as much blue as green while RAF Duck Egg Blue is as much green as blue. They have to call it something.

The trainer picture is interesting though. Even if I alter the colour balance on it to make the sky bluer the fuselage colour still has a blue/green hue, although perhaps biased a bit more to the blue side than the swatches I used. So with that in mind I have altered the bias slightly from green to blue on my Light Blue colour and used a little less of the Jet Black to darken it up.


Offline Devil 505

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2021, 09:46:02 AM »
I think that's as good as we're going to get.  :rock
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2021, 11:55:53 AM »
I definitely like it better, not that the original color was bad.
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Offline oboe

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2021, 12:59:58 PM »
Here's another photo retouch - increasing saturation, brightness, contrast, shifting yellow-blue balance 20% toward blue.   The sky appears a little more blue, the C-47 shifts slightly from brown-yellow drab a little toward green.  Yet the horse figure on the '47 retains a blue-green hue.   And I think we all agree the horse and the tail are most likely the same color?

 






« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 01:14:44 PM by oboe »

Offline oboe

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2021, 05:49:49 PM »
As an experiment, rather than starting with an old color photo and seeing if I could restore the original color by playing with the blue/yellow color balance, saturation, brightness, contrast, etc, I thought I'd see if I could go the other direction.

This is what happens when I start with a clean, color-accurate photo and basically reverse the changes I'd been doing to the old photos.  I thought it was interesting that I can pretty easily reproduce the blue-green color.


Offline oboe

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2021, 09:21:12 PM »
I happened to locate an online edition of the 79th Fighter Group's history, published in 1946:

The Falcon: Combat History of the 79th FG, US AAF 1942-1945

Page 93-94 has this color plate of the 86th FS tail:


I trust this color plate from the Group's History publication would have to be considered definitive evidence of the proper color, which appears to be very close ANA 501 after all.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 09:54:18 PM by oboe »

Offline Greebo

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2021, 09:34:36 AM »
I'm not convinced I need to change the skin again, but I'll have another look at it before the review at the end of the month.

Offline RichardDarkwood

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2021, 02:54:20 PM »
very nice
A yappy back seater like Jester wasn’t popular or fun to fly with, more of an unnecessary distraction than anything else---Puma44

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Offline Nefarious

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Re: The Trojan Warhorse
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2021, 08:02:44 AM »
Greebo has the finest bare metal in the game. Amazing work as always! <S>
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!