Author Topic: Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events  (Read 887 times)

Offline Arlo

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Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events
« on: July 13, 2022, 11:02:44 PM »
Wondering if anyone might be interested in reexamining most of the major battles of WWII for events (whether snapshots, scenarios or even week long setups in AvA). Many of these event setups have already been played (more than once), Looking over past logs and community feedback they might all be graded and, of course, the most successful might likely stand, as is. Some things affect the viability over time (typically player and organizer numbers). Other things to consider are resources (our skin and terrain managers who've been a wonderful asset in game have diminished over time). Those of us who might be willing to fill those shoes have a great deal to learn.

Other things to consider might be how to present the same battle from different aspects (no battle can realistically cover the entire order of battle or even just some elements that aren't represented in the AH equipment list or environmental vs equipment aspects - i.e. night battles). 

I might add possible events that fall slightly outside WWII (late  Spanish Civil War, for instance where AH has a limited possibility equipment modeling-wise).

Anyway, just tossing this out to anyone interested (pubically or privately) to discuss and consider.

Battle of Dunkirk from May 26 to June 4, 1940

A German invasion around the French coastal town of Dunkirk separates the French and British armies, marooning Allied forces. But with Adolf Hitler halting Germany's advance there, the Allies are able to perform a daring—and successful—evacuation, called Operation Dynamo. Germany claims victory with remaining Allied troops surrendering, but the evacuation serves to boost British morale, still referred to as the "Dunkirk spirit."

Battle of Britain, July 10 to October 31, 1940

After a nearly four-month air campaign waged over England, Britain's Royal Air Force and Navy respond to heavy bombing attacks from Germany's Luftwaffe air force, including “the Blitz,” in an attempt to destroy the RAF before invading. Defense systems, including radar, and Hitler's decision to bomb London, rather than military bases, allows Britain to regroup and eventually win the battle.

Battle of Crete: May 20 to June 1, 1941
Nazi paratroopers invade the Greek island of Crete, marking history's first mostly airborne attack. Day one of the campaign results in heavy losses for the Germans, but fearing a sea assault, Allied forces soon withdraw and evacuate in defeat. With nearly 4,000 Allies and more than 3,000 Germans killed, however, Hitler decries "the day of the parachutist is over" and it is the country's last airborne campaign.

Battle of Moscow: October 2, 1941 to January 7, 1942

Following Germany's Operation Barbarossa, an invasion of the Soviet Union, the Axis launches a campaign to capture the capital city of Moscow before winter sets in. In preparation, the Soviets fortify the city and bring in reinforcements. After a series of gains and losses on both sides during harsh weather, the Germans are eventually beaten back and forced to retreat.

Battle of Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941

In a surprise wave of attacks on the U.S. naval base at Oahu Island, Hawaii's Pearl Harbor, Japan, aligned with the Axis, takes out America's Pacific fleet (the fleet's three aircraft carriers are not present during the attack). With approximately 2,400 U.S. troops killed and another 1,000 wounded, President Franklin D. Roosevelt calls it "a date which will live in infamy" and, the next day, the U.S. officially enters World War II, declaring war on Japan.

Second Battle of Kharkov: May 12-28, 1942

In a counter-offensive after Germany's attack on Moscow, the Soviet Red Army attacks Kharkov, Ukraine with the aid of 1,500 tanks and 1,000 aircraft but German intelligence alerts the Axis to the campaign. Facing nearly 300,000 casualties and gaining little traction, the Soviets are forced to concede.

Battle of Midway, June 4-7, 1942

In one of America's most important World War II naval wins, American intelligence is able to break codes to thwart a Japanese attack on the US. at Midway Island in the Pacific Ocean. With Japan focused on Midway, U.S. forces, including dive bombers, attack, sinking four of Japan's aircraft carriers and the victory serves as a turning point in the conflict.

Battle of the Guadalcanal Campaign: August 7, 1942 to February 9, 1943
Weeks after Japan begins building a strategic airfield on Guadalcanal, part of the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific Ocean, U.S. forces launch a surprise attack, taking control of the airfield and forcing the Japanese into initial retreat. But with reinforcements arriving, hand-to-hand jungle combat follows with Japan finally retreating six months later, with 31,000 casualties and the loss of 38 ships. The Allies lose 29 ships and 7,100 soldiers.

Battle of Stalingrad, August 23, 1942 to February 2, 1943

In a conflict that marks the war's outcome tipping in the favor of the Allies, the Red Army defends the Russian city of Stalingrad from German attack, bringing an end to the Axis's eastern Europe advances and handing it its first decisive defeat. One of the longest, biggest and deadliest battles of the war, it ends with close to 2 million casualties, including civilians, with brutal winter weather and a Russian blockade causing many Germans to starve to death.

Operation Torch: November 8-16, 1942

The Allies invade French North Africa in an attempt to draw the Axis away from Soviet attacks on the Eastern Front and gain control of the Mediterranean shipping lanes. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower leads attacks on Oran, Algiers and Casablanca before advancing on Tunis and causing the Vichy French to realign with the Allies. The victory is touted by Winston Churchill as the "end of the beginning."

Battle of Monte Cassino: January 17 to May 18, 1944

Advancing in Italy toward Rome, the Allies attack the Gustav Line, held by the Axis, at the mountain town of Monte Cassino, home to a Benedictine abbey dating to 524 A.D. Evacuated by the Germans, both sides tell the Vatican it will not be attacked or used in military operations. However, in a bomber attack by the Allies, the abbey is destroyed, leading to public outcry and, post-bombing, as shelter for the Nazis. Polish troops capture the abbey on May 18, leading the way for the Allied capture of Rome soon after.

Battle of Anzio: January 22 to June 5, 1944

Attempting to liberate Italy, the Allies land at Anzio, catching the Germans by surprise and quickly securing a beachhead during Operation Shingle. However, continued Axis resistance and counter-attacks ensue, resulting in a stalemate that doesn't end until the fall of Rome. It’s seen as a failure for the Allies, although it does keep German troops from moving to France in the days before the invasion at Normandy.

Battle of the Philippine Sea: June 19-20, 1944

Japan attacks Allied forces who have advanced in the Pacific Theater to the Marianas Islands in the war's largest aircraft carrier battle. Prepared for the strike, the United States launches a stunning counter-attack, and the battle is later called the "Marianas Turkey Shoot" due to minimal U.S. casualties and the Japanese losing some 600 aircraft, two oilers and three carriers.

Battle of Normandy, June 6 to August 30, 1944

American, British and Canadian troops storm five beaches at Normandy France June 6, known as D-Day, waging one of military history's largest water invasions. At Omaha Beach, more than 2,000 American casualties are suffered with some 4,000 deaths that day. But by June 11, the beaches are secured and 325,000-plus forces have landed. The Allies begin their advance across Normandy, eventually liberating Paris.

Battle of Leyte Gulf: October 23-26, 1944

In World War II's largest naval battle, the Allies invade the Philippines to retake the commonwealth and create a Southeast Asian blockade. In a counter-attack, Japan deploys its first kamikaze, or suicide, bombers. Despite heavy U.S. casualties—more than 23,000 U.S. soldiers and sailors are killed—Japan suffers nearly 420,000 casualties and the conflict serves to cripple most of Japan's surface fleet, giving the Allies command of the Pacific.

Battle of the Bulge: December 16, 1944 to January 25, 1945

Fought in brutal, frigid winter conditions, Hitler's forces launch a surprise, last-ditch counter-attack in an attempt to split the line of the Allies on the Western Front at the forested region of Ardennes in Belgium and Luxembourg. The battle becomes known as Battle of the Bulge, because the Germans created a “bulge” around the area of the Ardennes forest in pushing through the American defensive line.

After early German success, the Allies regain their positions thanks, in part, to reinforcements and an eventual Christmas Day airstrike once the weather clears. The Allies win (German casualties number 100,000-plus and American casualties are estimated to be 81,000) and continue their advance toward Berlin.

Battle of Iwo Jima: February 19 to March 26, 1945

Fought 660 miles south of Tokyo, U.S. Marines invade the volcanic island of Iwo Jima seeking a strategic staging area for a possible attack on Japan's mainland. Weeks of bloody battle follow and while the Americans eventually gain control, 7,000 Marines are killed, with 20,000 wounded. All but 216 of 18,000 Japanese soldiers are killed. The island later serves as an emergency landing sight for B-29 bombers.

Battle of Berlin, April 16 to May 2, 1945

Soviet forces, with support from American and British aircraft, launch an offensive against the German capital of Berlin in one of World War II's final major battles. As the Red Army encircles the city, capturing Gestapo headquarters, Hilter commits suicide April 30 in the Führerbunker and Germany surrenders a few days later, essentially ending the war.

Battle of Okinawa: April 1 to June 22, 1945

World War II's final major battle—and one of the war's bloodiest—begins Easter Sunday as U.S. Army and Marine forces invade Okinawa in the Ryukyus island chain southwest of Japan with the orders of taking the island to execute air strikes against Japan and create a blockade.

Counter-striking with kamikaze attacks, the Japanese sink 26 Allied ships and damage nearly 170 more, causing more than 12,000 American deaths over the three-month battle. Finally overpowered by the Americans, many surviving Japanese kill themselves rather than surrender. In the end, more than 100,000 Japanese are killed, along with 150,000 civilians.  :salute :cheers:





Offline Nefarious

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Re: Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2022, 08:55:34 PM »
Happy to lend some bomber formations for something new.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Arlo

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Re: Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2022, 09:37:24 AM »
Happy to lend some bomber formations for something new.

That sounds good.  :)

Offline Nefarious

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There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Arlo

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Re: Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2022, 12:51:37 PM »
2 weeks. I'll try.  :)

Offline perdue3

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Re: Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2022, 10:15:55 AM »
I am confused by your post as I am not sure what your point is. You open by saying we have done many of these more than once, yet you still list them? I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I have not found your point or idea here.

What I think you hinted at was that we should simulate smaller battles within the battle, but I am not sure. It is true we have done all of these or some variation of these. The war lasted ~6 years, we have been doing special events for 25 years. There will be some overlapping and some things will be repeated. What we designers try to do is to spice up events to do something different and new. Sometimes, this is not always possible. I, personally, try to think outside the box and do some things never done before in my designs. Or, to have a theme or to make sure I get a rarely used aircraft in an event. Any ideas are always welcome by the design staff of FSO and Scenarios, so please don't hold back.

The only one you listed that has not been done as an FSO or Scenario is Crete, but we did Operation Marita (plus Operation Punishment) last year and in 2010. Hard to simulate Crete because of the serious lack of aerial battles and distance. However, I have looked into doing the event without C-47's and it can be done with some stretching, it just isn't great. Spanish Civil War has been on my wish list for an extremely long time as I am a huge Golden Age nut. Sadly, the Bf 109E-4 v I-16 matchup does not work that great in events. It seems like it should be better, but it is not and there must be something added to the I-16 to help carry the load like a Yak-7 or a P-40. Sadly, the best option is a Fokker D.XXI sub, which would be a Ki-43. A He 112 would fix all of the problems. Then, you have to sub attack aircraft like the SB and Potez 540. For the SB, best option is a B-25C, which I have done before. So, you would have a plane set looking like: 109E, 111 vs. I-16, Ki-43, B-25C. Interesting, fun to me, and would be cool to see all of Greebo's magic with Spanish colors, but not a good event; not balanced, people would not enjoy flying any of the Republican aircraft, and the Emil would dominate.

Still, let the creative juices flow and feel free to submit ideas to a designer for feedback.

 :cheers:
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

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Offline Arlo

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Re: Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2022, 02:58:49 PM »

It's impossible to simulate a 'whole battle' in AH - even when we had more #s. It is possible to simulate elements or segments of a battle. Possibly more than one (just not at the same time).  :old:

Offline Brooke

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Re: Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2022, 02:58:03 AM »
There are lots of battles I'd love to fly in.

Constraints include:
-- Having a design that will draw enough people to run it.
-- Having a terrain available.
-- The historical battle having a substantial air-combat component (although if popular enough, we could maybe to a "what if").

Earlier war is hard to fill -- other than BoB.
PTO is hard to fill -- other than if Japanese are mostly Ki-84's and N1K's.
Planes that are outclassed by other others in the setup are hard to fill.
The more we deviate from historical plane set, the more potential discontent there is.

Offline perdue3

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Re: Reconsidering Battles of WWII - practicality for events
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2022, 07:33:27 AM »
It's impossible to simulate a 'whole battle' in AH - even when we had more #s. It is possible to simulate elements or segments of a battle. Possibly more than one (just not at the same time).  :old:

Sure. We have to cherrypick OOB's to fit events these days. But, you listed whole battles without specifying which small element of said battle should be focused on. It just seems like an aimless post, is my point. I suppose I have missed something. Here is an example of my perplexity:

"Operation Torch: November 8-16, 1942

The Allies invade French North Africa in an attempt to draw the Axis away from Soviet attacks on the Eastern Front and gain control of the Mediterranean shipping lanes. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower leads attacks on Oran, Algiers and Casablanca before advancing on Tunis and causing the Vichy French to realign with the Allies. The victory is touted by Winston Churchill as the "end of the beginning.""

Had you followed this up with recommending designers simulate one of the three landings at Casablanca, Oran, or Algiers as an event, I'd applaud. I have actually done 2 of the 3 already at Casablanca and Oran. It was very fun, especially Casablanca, which we spent months designing. It had P-40C as Hawk 75 and Yak-7 as D.520. P-40F taking off of CV, just as they did from the Ranger. A very cool event. Instead, you gave us a copy and paste from history.com. You mentioned grading them, but didn't. I'd grade Casablanca as a 8.5/10, personally. I thought it was excellently balanced and included some very interesting aspects. Cherkassy Pocket was another good one that I did. For every standout design, there is a dud, though. Hard to run early war without some complaints. People don't like Ju 87D's, apparently.

Alas, I appreciate the enthusiasm and continue to welcome any ideas, solidified or otherwise, to making new events that haven't been thought of.

 :cheers:

« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 07:58:09 AM by perdue3 »
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