CAF B-17 Midair - Totally Destroyed - Dallas *GRAPHIC*

[Vraciu]

In the Ward Carroll Video at :10s shows the P63 in a bank well past 45degrees and close to 60 degrees, which can easily explain his nose down attitude at 175-200kts.

As previously noted, 175-200 knots wasn't even as fast as the two Mustangs in the formation.   The P-63 was the slowest of the three.   His max speed well prior to the collision was 198 knots.   Mustang #2 hit a peak speed of 212 knots. 

[DmonSlyr]

Appears the P-63 got out of position for whatever reason and was descending while attempting to regaining position.  A wingman should never get low relative to lead in a low altitude environment.  Too much potential for an inadvertent ground or other obstacle strike.  A wingman’s primary responsibility is to maintain sight of lead.  The event looks like the pilot was padlocked on lead, and in conjunction with loss of SA, resulted in disastrous results. 

No doubt, the feds are already looking at the formation briefing and what the flight lead briefed his wingman.  Every complete formation briefing should include lost wingman procedures in the event of loss of visual, even in day VFR conditions.  “Lose sight.  Lose fight”.

A host of questions to be answered.

This is true to what I am visually seeing from the films. He did not bank as hard as the P51s and according to Ward Carroll they were supposed to be out front of the B17s. Those P51s were way ahead of the P63 after that turn, you dont even see them in the films. I really wish we could have a longer film. It's almost like he thought he couldn't make the turn or something.

The bird theory is interesting. Would no one have seen the bird and commented somewhere about it that they saw it hit the plane on any social media? Was there no closer zoomed in footage of the area that would have identified a bird or drone? I haven't heard anyone mention it since this film. The bad film quality also irritates me. It seems someone would have been able to witness a bird hit the plane. No way a drone would be allowed to have been there.

[Vraciu]

The Mustangs were not "way ahead" -- the intervals between the airplanes were almost identical.

[Puma44]

The vector changes significantly nose down after the object strikes the Kingcobra.

Assuming the object hit.  No proof of that happening.  Only opinion.

[Vraciu]

Assuming the object hit.  No proof of that happening.  Only opinion.

Which I've already agreed on.

It may be an artifact in the film conveniently timed.    But regardless, there is a nosedown pitch change that appears unusually rapid.   THAT could point back to Busher's comment on physiological factors if it was not caused by an actual object striking the aircraft.

[DmonSlyr]

The Mustangs were not "way ahead" -- the intervals between the airplanes were almost identical.

Not sure how you can gather that with such short film footage. To me he broke off for some reason or another.

[Vraciu]

Not sure how you can gather that with such short film footage. To me he broke off for some reason or another.

Bro, you smoke some strong stuff...


It's very simple.....

Gunfighter goes overhead nose on to the camera....


One potato.   Two potato.   

By Request goes overhead, slightly left of the camera.   

One potato.  Two potato.

P-63F goes by the same point offset to the left of the camera at the same distance from By Request as By Request was from Gunfighter.   

[Vraciu]

Not the most well-written article, but...  NTSB Preliminary Report is out.


https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/ntsb-releases-preliminary-report-deadly-air-show-plane-crash/287-af80ced7-0347-4f0b-ab5d-b763391506b4

[100Coogn]

Not the most well-written article, but...  NTSB Preliminary Report is out.


https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/ntsb-releases-preliminary-report-deadly-air-show-plane-crash/287-af80ced7-0347-4f0b-ab5d-b763391506b4

I hope you offered them your invaluable opinions.   

Coogan

[Vraciu]

I hope you offered them your invaluable opinions.   

Coogan

My opinions may not be INVALUABLE,  but they are light years more valuable, informed, intelligent, and rational than anything you've ever had (or will have) to offer.    Get off my leg, chucklehead.

[TyFoo]

Blancolirio put out a good video on Youtube last night. His take makes a lot of sense.

[100Coogn]

Blancolirio put out a good video on Youtube last night. His take makes a lot of sense.

Pretty informative video.
Much more compelling than some of the theories on this forum.
Here's the video.



Coogan

[Vraciu]

Nothing here that we haven't already covered except the revelation that the Air Boss had airplanes cross showlines (!) post-brief(!).    Also, the deconfliction rules did not include vertical separation, something I pointed to very early on in this thread.

[Vraciu]

BTW, the Air Boss was Russ Royce, son of Ralph Royce.   They are considered part of CAF "Royalty" (a term sometimes uttered as a pejorative).   I knew Ralph as far back as the late 80s.  Never met Russ.   I'll leave personal judgments to others where this is concerned.

[Peabody]

My opinions may not be INVALUABLE,  but they are light years more valuable, informed, intelligent, and rational than anything you've ever had (or will have) to offer.    Get off my leg, chucklehead.

Whiney know it-all little tosser. I do believe you need to tell your mum your nappy needs changing.