Author Topic: Korean War: questions to Widewing  (Read 480 times)

Offline Boroda

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« on: March 23, 2001, 10:52:00 AM »
I think it's a good idea to move here and talk without too much emotions that are now raising in previous thread. People with your level of knowledge are "rare birds", and it's great pleasure to talk with you.

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On March 12, four 36th FBS Shooting Stars on an armed reconnaissance mission near Namsi were jumped by 12 MiGs. The F-80 pilots scored some hits on the enemy planes but did not bring down any. During the battle, however, two of the MiGs collided and exploded. These enemy pilots may have been new to combat, for their shooting was extremely poor.
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At 13.06 10 MiG-15s from 28th GvIAP lead by gv. cpt. Borodin took off to intercept enemy planes. After climbing to 8000m the group was directed towards Singisyu, where it found enemy fighter-bombers that strafed ground targets in pairs.

Leaving the wing of gv. cpt. Sosna at the high alt, the leader with his 6 planes attacked Shooting Stars head-on. Leader of the second pair gv. sr. lt. Divakov after head-on pass got to the 6 of 2 F-80s, and, after closing to  an enemy started to fire at the leader from 400-500m. Gv. cpt. Borodin, covering his attack, suddenly discovered that his wingman, gv. sr. lt. Sokolov disappeared. The same thing happened to the third pair leader, gv. lt. col. Kolyadin, who found that he was alone after attacking the enemy planes. Both wingmen, gv. sr. lt. Sokolov and gv. sr. lt. Bushmelev didn't return to base.

Only after careful inquiry on the ground the accident that resulted in death of 2 Soviet pilots became clear. Both pilots were attacking one American plane without seing each other. Bushmelev attacked F-80 from above and Sokolov - from below, but they didn't manage to open fire. Two planes collided in a violent explosion.

Generaly our group prevented American planes from storming Singisyu airfield, Kolyadin and Divakov managed to score some hits on enemy planes.

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Five days later, near Sunchon, another trio of 36th FBS planes encountered more MiGs. In a freewheeling, low-level fight in and out of clouds, a MiG collided with 1st Lt. Howard J. Landry's F-80. Landry was posthumously credited with downing the enemy fighter.
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On March, 17, at 11.25, 4 MiGs from 72nd GvIAP lead by gv. lt. col. Bordun took off to cover a "special importance" train on a Sensen-An'dun railway. Closing to Sensen railway station at 11.45 our pilots saw 4 F-80s at 350m, coming out of the clouds to attack the station. Leading pair of F-80s cut into the middle of our group. Wingman of the second pair, gv.sr.lt Khominich opened fire from low 6, first upon enemy leader, then upon wingman from 800-400m. Americans immediately dropped tanks and escaped between the hills, first gaining alt and then diving.
When the enemy group appeared from the clouds, gv. cpt. Dubrovin broke left and disappeared in the clouds, and didn't return to base. His last minutes could be reconstructed only from the words of local civilians who watched the combat from the ground. Behind the clouds our pilot engaged the enemy and shot down one F-80 that exploded in the air. Then he chased another "Shooting Star", but in the fever of the attack coudn't drive his plane from a dive and crashed into a hill.


I hope you understand the level of detail in that book. Every fight is described, including engagement, situation development, maneuvering and positions.

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To thwart the enemy, Gen. Stratemeyer ordered a B-29 strike on Pyongyang for January 23. Forty F-80s of the 49th FBG would fly flak suppression missions prior to the B-29 attack. Another strike was also planned for the 23d. Colonel Ashley B. Packard, the 27th FEW's commander, proposed sending eight flights of F-84s to strafe Sinuiju. Two flights would constitute the attack package while the remainder would act as top cover. Both missions on the 23d were executed flawlessly.
The flak suppression F-80s at Pyongyang did their job so well that the B-29s drew little fire as they placed 90 percent of their bombs on the airfield. At Sinuiju, it was MiGs, not flak, that met the attackers. The eight strafers had already made their runs across the airfield before the enemy reacted. Dust clouds on the Antung field revealed the MiGs taking off. Because of their late takeoff, the MiGs were unable to gain an altitude advantage, and most of the fighting was done below 20,000 feet. For almost 30 minutes, a fierce air battle raged over Sinuiju. First Lieutenant Jacob Kratt, Jr., scored a double kill in less than two minutes, and Capts. Allen McGuire and William W. Slaughter each claimed a MiG. (McGuire's victory does not appear in the USAF's 1988 list of official credits.) In all, the 27th pilots claimed four MiGs destroyed, three probables, and four damaged against no losses. Three days after this battle, Kratt downed a Yak-3 for his final victory of the war.
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The description of this fight is several pages long, so I'll only say that Soviet side lost only 1 MiG with gv. cpt. Grebenkin. He spinned and ejected too low, so the chute didn't open... No other damadged or destroyed planes on Soviet side. Soviet pilots claimed 6 victories by gv. maj. Bogatyrev, gv. cpt. Orlov, gv. cpt. Perekrest, gv. cpt. Ryazanov, gv. cpt. Chumakov and gv. sr. lt. Kurnosov. Interesting, but Bogatyrev chased his victim until it crashed. Soviet data says it was 27 MiGs vs. 32 Thunderjets. Were there any F-84s from other units? It's a reasonable question, because your text doesn't mention some key moments of the war. As I said, first F-80 was shot down by MiG-15 on November, 3rd, while here we read the same fairy-tale about maj. Brown's kill in a first clash with MiGs.

Hinton's first kill: your description is incomplete. First, Hinton was alone - he lost his wingmen because of radio breakdown and attaked 4 MiGs from 6 when they went head-on with other 3 F-86s. Then - MiGs didn't "run for shelter". Second pair lead by gv. st. lt. Petrov escorted damadged MiG flown by maj. Yefromenko, while his wing leader, gv. maj. Keleynikov alone attacked the Sabres. Then, Hinton sprayed his full ammo load on an empty plane (!!!) after Yefromenko ejected safely.

I'll try to translate more episodes from this book, but it will be better if you provide texts with the same level of detail.

Sorry for my English.   I hate to translate from Russian to English, many falvours and attitudes disappear.

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With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

Offline mx22

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2001, 12:19:00 PM »
<g>Pavel,

If you trying to raise my interest in that book any more, let me tell you - it's impossible, it can't be any more then what it is now
I hope you'll send me scans of it

mx22

Offline Boroda

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2001, 02:14:00 PM »
Alexei, here is an FTP link to a file I sent to you:

ftp://sky.chph.ras.ru/pub/uncheck/Naboka-1.ZIP

It's a zipped CP1251 RTF file.

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

Offline Dmitry

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2001, 09:26:00 PM »
Great job on the translation Pavel   <S>
BTW let me know what ya going to translate first and I will do some other parts. This way we wont be doing more job then neccessary  

Will scan for Widewings email and will send him a link with invetation. No need to have guys with unpropriate attitude in our threads. Looking forward to prolong fine debates
<S> to all

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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty

funked

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2001, 10:15:00 AM »
Thanks guys, this is amazing stuff!    

I just wanted to let you know that there is a new forum for such historical discussions of air combat over Korea.

If you guys could cross-post there I would be very appreciative.  



[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-26-2001).]

funked

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2001, 10:32:00 AM »
Another thing:

 
Quote
Soviet data says it was 27
                        MiGs vs. 32 Thunderjets. Were there any F-84s from other units?
Quote

As far as I know, USAF calls a four-plane unit a flight.

Quote
27th FEW's commander, proposed sending eight flights of F-84s to strafe Sinuiju.

So eight flights of F-84's at Sinuiju would be 32 planes.  This doesn't rule out aircraft from other units, but at least the numbers agree.

Offline mx22

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »
Pavel,

Sorry for my impatience, but did you by any chance scan the rest of the book?
Btw, book seems to be a tad Russian centered and I bet when translated many Americans will say it is all Communits propaganda  

mx22

[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 03-26-2001).]

Offline Dinger

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2001, 12:03:00 PM »
hehe, with a title like that, referring anachronistically to "NATO hawks", it IS propaganda.  That doesn't mean of course it can't have decent information, just that you can't take it uncritically.  And that principle holds for ALL historical sources, primary or secondary.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2001, 12:56:00 PM »
I scanned 50 more pages yesterday, still have about 70 to go, hope to make it tomorrow.

The cover title is "Soviet pilots protecting the sky of China and Korea". As I said before, this book was printed in spring 1999, when the whole Russian society was enraged by NATO agression against Yugoslavia. In the whole book NATO isn't mentioned at all. Other details: the book has an "Otechestvo" emblem on it's cover: looks like it was printed on the money of that patry, lead by Eugeniy Primakov, just before parliament elections. I hope you understand that NATO has nothing to do with Korean war.

I have sent an e-mail to "Aviatsiya i vremya" (Aviation and Time) magazine from Kiev that pubished Naboka's artices, and asked if they can give me his contact information. If they'l not reply I'll probably call "Sovetskaya Kuban'" publishers and ask them.

BTW, many people in Russian newsgroups search for the MiG-15bis Piot's Manual. Looks like I found a trace, the problem is that it is in SPb, and I need to have it aranged before I'll spend my March salary on beer so I can go there and scan it  

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

Offline mx22

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2001, 02:06:00 PM »
hehe Pavel you rule

If you ever get to New York find me, drinkas are on me

mx22

Offline Dmitry

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2001, 12:19:00 AM »
wtg Pavel, still the question is - will you translate further and if yes which parts - hate to do a pointless job...
<S>

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Dmitry aka vfGhosty

Offline Dmitry

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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2001, 12:20:00 AM »
BTW -where is Widewing?? I miss him here...

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Dmitry aka vfGhosty

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2001, 02:43:00 AM »
Didn't expect a fast answer from "Aviatsiya i vremya", but they already send me Vitaliy Petrovich's phone number in Krasnodar!

Alexander Larionov, editor in chef, also said that there is a similiar book, published in Kiev, being prepared for publishing in the US.

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

Offline mx22

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Korean War: questions to Widewing
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2001, 12:11:00 PM »
<punt>
I'm done reading first part of the book Pavel hint...hint...
Btw, if you need help translating some parts of the book, I can help you out.

mx22

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2001, 04:26:00 PM »
I didn't realize that this discussion had moved here. For some additional insight into the air war over Korea, visit the URLs listed below. These pages are all on www.korean-war.com.  I am providing direct links rather than have you navigate the entire website.
 http://www.korean-war.com/AirChronology.html  
 http://www.korean-war.com/sovietunion.html  
 http://www.korean-war.com/ussraircombat.html
  http://www.korean-war.com/ussrairorderofbattle.html  
 http://www.korean-war.com/USAirForce/usunairvictories.html  
 http://www.korean-war.com/nokoreaairforce.html  
 http://www.korean-war.com/DPRK.html  

My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.