Author Topic: Marseille (Read 901 times)

DamnedATC · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2002, 02:51:00 PM »

Originally posted by FurBull:
The Luftwaffe - with typical Teutonic rigor and thoroughness - was the most conscientious of _ALL_ the nations in verifying and documenting it's pilots victory claims.

WTF does that come from.
conscientious: guided by one's sense of right and wrong.

That is one thing the Nazi's did not have.

ATC

Staga · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2002, 03:01:00 PM »

Maybe not nazies but howabout pilots? Or were they all nazies?

DamnedBuzzard · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2002, 04:19:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Staga:
Maybe not nazies but howabout pilots? Or were they all nazies?

Doubtless all pilots weren't Nazi's nor all Nazi's pilots. But you can bet yer leather clad butt the Nazi's were in charge of keepin score. And that says all that needs to be said about Herr furbull's assertions.

RJH57 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2002, 05:26:00 PM »

ATC wrote:
>WTF does that come from.
>conscientious: guided by one's sense of >right and wrong.
>That is one thing the Nazi's did not have.

WTF does Nazism have to do with air combat records? Either a plane got shot down or it didn't... I'm not interested in political/moral bullsh*t.

akak · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2002, 05:47:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by FurBull:

WTF does Nazism have to do with air combat records? Either a plane got shot down or it didn't... I'm not interested in political/moral bullsh*t.

Kind of like how the class-structure of England doesn't have anything to do with air combat. So if the English were so class conscience that they put "keeping up appearances" ahead of the truth, why can't the Nazis be accused of doing the same? One can argue that the Nazis also greatly inflated and exagerated their kills to further promote their misguided claims of "Teutonic rigor and thoroughness".

RJH57 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2002, 06:00:00 PM »

Buzzard wrote:
>the Nazi's were in charge of keepin score. >And that says all that needs to be said

Individual pilot scores were the responsibilty of the Luftwaffe combat units not Goebels' propaganda ministry. Goebel's probably claimed in his wartime broadcasts that the Luftwaffe shot down 5000 planes every single day but no self-respecting Luftwaffe fighter pilot would accept his propaganda as fact and neither do I. Equally bogus is the British propaganda bullsh*t that no Brit planes were lost in N Africa on September 01, 1942 when in fact they lost more than 20! I'm not interested in propaganda - whether it's German, British, American.... The issue here is the combat record of Jochen Marseilles and of Luftwaffe pilots in general. Given the nature of aerial combat, the numbers claimed may not always be totally 100% accurate, but the historical evidence is that the Luftwaffe's claims are certainly credible!

Seeker · « **Reply #21 on:** January 08, 2002, 06:04:00 PM »

"Here they come again, the last fifty Spitfires"........

You do the math.

DamnedBuzzard · « **Reply #22 on:** January 08, 2002, 06:48:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Seeker:
"Here they come again, the last fifty Spitfires"........

You do the math.

I hate when you get all cryptic. Tex, is that you ?

Pongo · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2002, 07:20:00 PM »

People are just blowing smoke here.
No credible source challenges the kill total of Marseille.
The German scoreing system was more accurate then then any of the allied ones.
The Allies did use flexible accounting of kills for moral purposes. I have never seen a credible claim that the Germans did likewise.
What does the fact that many Germans were nazis have to do with it..Many of the Brits were commies. Many of the upper crust Brits admired the Nazis. What is your point..The Germans while not perfect were at least as accurate as anyone about counting kills.

Staga · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2002, 11:44:00 PM »

I guess some countries were counting victories more precise than others: Russian archives revealed that FAF shot down 1855 planes while Finnish pilots got only 1807 victories (Winter- and Continuation war).

Oldman731 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 09, 2002, 07:35:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pongo:
No credible source challenges the kill total of Marseille.

I think Johnnie Johnson is a fairly credible source. In fact, as a fighter pilot, I'd consider him a superior source.

The German scoreing system was more accurate then then any of the allied ones.

Where do you guys get this? The RLM destroyed its official kill records at the end of the war. There are no official records of kills awarded. There are only official records of claims made. I've yet to see any primary source (which that Constable/Tolliver outfit is not)that would make me think the Nazis were even close to the US in evaluating claims. Gun camera use was sporadic and mainly late-war, so far as Galland tells us. Caldwell, who has done some pretty thorough records research, estimates that the Nazi claims were 10-20 per cent exaggerated, and that claims for American four-engine bombers might be double the actual loss.

The Allies did use flexible accounting of kills for moral purposes. I have never seen a credible claim that the Germans did likewise.

With the US bomber crew claims that was probably true. Post-war research, according to Freeman, shows that US fighter claims were very close to actual Nazi losses. As for the Nazi claims, give me a break. What was the purpose of their silly point system, if not to improve pilot morale?

What does the fact that many Germans were nazis have to do with it..Many of the Brits were commies. Many of the upper crust Brits admired the Nazis. What is your point

You were the one who started throwing around crap about English class distinctions causing inflated English claims.

The Germans while not perfect were at least as accurate as anyone about counting kills.

I don't buy this; I don't see how anyone can. If you credit Nazi claims, then 100 guys accounted for 14,000 Allied planes.

- Oldman

Sakai · « **Reply #26 on:** January 09, 2002, 08:47:00 AM »

Well, maybe I shot down 14,000, it's hard to recall because I was drinking heavily in those days.

Sakai

Oldman731 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 09, 2002, 11:25:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sakai:
Well, maybe I shot down 14,000, it's hard to recall because I was drinking heavily in those days.

Sakai

I hadn't heard you stopped.

Have you an interest in opening a dry goods store in California, perhaps?

- oldman

Sakai · « **Reply #28 on:** January 09, 2002, 12:06:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Oldman:

I hadn't heard you stopped.

Have you an interest in opening a dry goods store in California, perhaps?

- oldman

Just as soon as I blow the queejip outta a couple varmints to get my grub stake set, I reckon I might.

By the by, is that one of the ten best all time westerns, or what the hell, over?

Sakai

DamnedBuzzard · « **Reply #29 on:** January 09, 2002, 12:26:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sakai:

By the by, is that one of the ten best all time westerns, or what the hell, over?

Sakai

Yep. Favorite scene : th speech comin outa th bar after doin for Little Bill.