Author Topic: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014  (Read 5079 times)

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2024, 10:32:08 AM »
This a great summation of what Russian IO has been pushing to western audiences.

No, it's not. And thinking this is exactly why we are at war. Ie, "we didn't do nuffin, it's all the ruskies, burisma and Hunter and Bobulinski are all lies and American leadership is clean as a whistle, it's everyone else".

I sure as hell don't trust American media, why should I after the last 10 years? Why should I trust the UN establishment after Covid? Sorry, but we are too advanced now as a society to be mocked and lied to while yall try to turn around and call every thing Russia says as propaganda. 
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2024, 10:47:18 AM »
No, it's not. And thinking this is exactly why we are at war. Ie, "we didn't do nuffin, it's all the ruskies, burisma and Hunter and Bobulinski are all lies and American leadership is clean as a whistle, it's everyone else".

I sure as hell don't trust American media, why should I after the last 10 years? Why should I trust the UN establishment after Covid? Sorry, but we are too advanced now as a society to be mocked and lied to while yall try to turn around and call every thing Russia says as propaganda.

I agree we should not trust US media as well as any other.  It's safe to say almost all news has at least some bias and must be vetted against observable fact and accounts from different sides of the event in question.

There in is the point I made as your basis of fact aligns with Russian IO towards western audiences almost perfectly which should give you reason to question the legitimacy of your sources. 

Offline Eagler

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2024, 10:56:03 AM »
I question all sources equally

Like many I have lost all faith in our own media

It makes it very difficult to separate fact from agenda driven fiction...

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Offline Gman

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2024, 12:17:20 PM »
I don't personally agree. My work places me in the middle of a global community and as such I have close friends from many nations including Russia and including Ukraine. Both of those nations tell me that the media is lying to the west. My Ukrainian friends tell me Ukraine is a stupid country, at war with itself more than anyone else.

Ukraine has been stomped and has no manpower left. What would anyone expect when a giant with one hundred and fifty million people are at war with a nation of just thirty seven million?

https://uawar.net/stats  - this link is a classic example of propaganda. The Rus loses tab shows some numbers. The Ukr tab shows nothing and shouts in bold red letter 'HEROES DONT DIE!' Oh, and of course under that is a link where you can 'donate to save lives!'

Reuters reported that the death/wounded toll stands thus:

Russia: 315,000
Ukraine: 70,000

Who in their right mind would believe that? Russia has more of everything. Even with all the Nato and US stockpiles that have been wasted, Ukraine cannot maintain an artillery war. Russia on the other hand has massive production capabilities for munitions. Far greater than any European nation or the USA.

In some regions of Ukraine the Russians were welcomed as liberators by some of the population.

More ridiculous statistics from the BBC, that wonderful British company that employs and shelters child molesters.

Russia: 180,000 killed
Ukraine: 31,000 killed

Just how anyone could believe that is beyond me.

I do not claim to know the true statistics. But my guess would be somewhat equal. Relatively modern armies using quite similar level tech. It's been a true war of attrition so far and these next few months is where we will see that Russian capacity for attrition is greater the Ukraine's.

So well said Batfink. 

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2024, 04:32:28 PM »
Who in their right mind would believe that? Russia has more of everything. Even with all the Nato and US stockpiles that have been wasted, Ukraine cannot maintain an artillery war. Russia on the other hand has massive production capabilities for munitions. Far greater than any European nation or the USA.

It's not hard to see why when the russians are using their 2nd tier equipment, and sending poorly trained and equipped conscripts, and the unit structure has been shown to be lacking. Not to mention the problem russian command seems to have with 3rd story windows.

Offline Meatwad

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2024, 05:46:50 PM »
It's not hard to see why when the russians are using their 2nd tier equipment, and sending poorly trained and equipped conscripts, and the unit structure has been shown to be lacking. Not to mention the problem russian command seems to have with 3rd story windows.

They have a very high suicide rate for some reason
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2024, 07:36:36 PM »
All powerful institutes murder the competition as a matter of course. It's hardly objective to mention that Russian power is also maintained in such a manner. Indeed, some nations have partially switched to falsely accusing competitors of sex crimes or paedophilia. Death seems preferable.

Vulcan you could be right, I'm just another armchair opinion. But my instinct tells me it's not that simple. My gut feeling tells me that Russia is doing very well. Ukraine is destroyed. The west wants to put spin to make Russia look less like a capable opponent than they really are.

Even if what we want to believe is true, that the Russian military is incompetent, it would appear now that they are getting first hand experience of fighting a modern war against equally equipped enemies. So I would presume their abilities are being honed to a razor edge. Unless we are to also believe that Russians are stupid, backwards, cave dwelling idiots who just so happen to have the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Actually, that would be even more terrifying.

The truth that I see is that the Russian nation is very smart, very patient, largely united under a strong leader and doing everything it can to achieve it's objectives without causing undue bloodshed. They have the capabilities to level the entire country in a matter of hours even without the nuclear option. Yet so far, they have not.
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2024, 07:47:06 PM »
All powerful institutes murder the competition as a matter of course. It's hardly objective to mention that Russian power is also maintained in such a manner. Indeed, some nations have partially switched to falsely accusing competitors of sex crimes or paedophilia. Death seems preferable.

Vulcan you could be right, I'm just another armchair opinion. But my instinct tells me it's not that simple. My gut feeling tells me that Russia is doing very well. Ukraine is destroyed. The west wants to put spin to make Russia look less like a capable opponent than they really are.

Even if what we want to believe is true, that the Russian military is incompetent, it would appear now that they are getting first hand experience of fighting a modern war against equally equipped enemies. So I would presume their abilities are being honed to a razor edge. Unless we are to also believe that Russians are stupid, backwards, cave dwelling idiots who just so happen to have the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Actually, that would be even more terrifying.

The truth that I see is that the Russian nation is very smart, very patient, largely united under a strong leader and doing everything it can to achieve it's objectives without causing undue bloodshed. They have the capabilities to level the entire country in a matter of hours even without the nuclear option. Yet so far, they have not.

If your assumptions were accurate this war would have been over two years ago and it's a long way from being so today unless something materially changes.  The reality from what I can see is Russia is a dumpster fire in many ways but they outnumber and out equip the Ukes who are dependent on spotty foreign support for materials.  The reality is Russia will take years to own as much Uke land as they did over two years ago at this rate and their documented losses are indeed very high.  That is why, despite massively out numbering the Ukes in men and material the war is where it is with Russia struggling to utilize that advantage to gain ground and the Ukes struggling to fight back.  It has essentially been a peer to peer struggle with each side having advantages in different areas over time and both desperately trying to gain advantage.

Offline Eagler

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2024, 07:40:37 AM »
Seems like an odd strategy to get into a fight where you know you will definitely lose without neverending outside support...how naive are you or is it a $$$$ thing..

No one has answered my question if the comic won the election running under the pretense that he was going to sign an agreement with putin but was told by the US after he won to tear it up?

We seem to be collecting global war buddies these days...why is the question

Peace

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Offline Eviscerate

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2024, 07:48:14 AM »
Seems like an odd strategy to get into a fight where you know you will definitely lose without neverending outside support...how naive are you or is it a $$$$ thing..

"get into a fight" is weird wording for being the target of a full scale military invasion.

Offline Eagler

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2024, 08:21:45 AM »
"get into a fight" is weird wording for being the target of a full scale military invasion.

Did Mr z have a way out or not?

Seems some say he did and choose not to take it...or was instructed not to take it...or said he would then changed his mind for some reason..who really knows but the comic himself..

If peace was signed tomorrow...would you then be for billions of taxpayers dollars to rebuilt another corrupt Ukraine from the rubble it looks to be today?

Just never understood the exit plan but the good ole us doesn't seem to need one of those anymore...see Afghanistan and Iraq for latest examples

Eagler
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2024, 08:34:05 AM »
If your assumptions were accurate this war would have been over two years ago and it's a long way from being so today unless something materially changes.  The reality from what I can see is Russia is a dumpster fire in many ways but they outnumber and out equip the Ukes who are dependent on spotty foreign support for materials.  The reality is Russia will take years to own as much Uke land as they did over two years ago at this rate and their documented losses are indeed very high.  That is why, despite massively out numbering the Ukes in men and material the war is where it is with Russia struggling to utilize that advantage to gain ground and the Ukes struggling to fight back.  It has essentially been a peer to peer struggle with each side having advantages in different areas over time and both desperately trying to gain advantage.

You could be right. Time will tell I guess.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2024, 08:40:12 AM »
Did Mr z have a way out or not?

I guess we should have just surrendered to the Emperor of Japan rather than fight.
Has there ever been a dictator you didn't have a reflexive instinct to kneel before and surrender to?

Your premise is essentially you believe there was corruption in the Ukraine government, therefore you are OK with Russia invading them.
Then you say there is corruption in our government.  I can only assume you'd be OK with Putin invading Alaska.

I mean if there is any corruption in a a country, it is OK for Putin to invade them, right?   I guess because there is no corruption in Russia.


Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Eagler

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2024, 08:58:08 AM »
I guess we should have just surrendered to the Emperor of Japan rather than fight.
Has there ever been a dictator you didn't have a reflexive instinct to kneel before and surrender to?

Your premise is essentially you believe there was corruption in the Ukraine government, therefore you are OK with Russia invading them.
Then you say there is corruption in our government.  I can only assume you'd be OK with Putin invading Alaska.

I mean if there is any corruption in a a country, it is OK for Putin to invade them, right?   I guess because there is no corruption in Russia.

Never stated that at all..

Did the dancing comic have a peaceful way out or not?



Seems the entire thing is about nato missiles in Ukraine..we want them there and Russia doesn't

The comparison of that scenario with the United States already happened in the 60's and the United States was willing to do the same thing Russia seems to have been forced into and is now the bad guy...

Same question...you guys ready to rebuild what seems to have been one of the most corrupt nations with billions of your tax dollars while illegal immigration, record crime and our own financial future are in jeopardy?

Israel can go pound sand too imo

Eagler
« Last Edit: May 03, 2024, 09:00:11 AM by Eagler »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2024, 09:06:04 AM »
Never stated that at all..

Did the dancing comic have a peaceful way out or not?

A victim always has the option to surrender to an attacker.  Should we have surrendered to the Emperor of Japan after Pearl Harbor?

Yes, Zelinsky was a comic in a past profession.  Does that justify his country being invaded?






Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.