Numbers Creeping up

[Lazerr]

And this is what you get when you will only have a 2 sides.

I don't agree with this.  I think it will force more people to fight in a certain area, rather than getting pounded on two sides of the map.  With adjustment to the ENY calculations, It would probably save the game the way it sits.  We could fix this issue in house with players making some decisions positive for gameplay, but It's clear none of these folks want to help.

If 45 guys want to attack 30 in 30 ENY birds go for.. that's cool...

But at least we would have 45 guys fighting 30 guys... not two countries ignoring eachother and rolling undefended, maybe lighly defended bases in 40 to 3 odds.

[Animl-AW]

When Trips and I agree on anything, you might want to pay attention

[uptown]

What urks me is, I promised myself I would get myself good in a 38G model and keep her under 10 or 12K doing it.  I've landed maybe 4 legit kills in that thing so far. And here lately I've been playing every night. I'm ditching the TrackIr and going back old school with the views to see if I can do better luck tonight.
I doubt it'll help for most everyone in this game has been playing every night for the last 10 or 15 years. Ponys, Spitfires, yaks...you name it. They all want the moron in the 38 I may just have to fly around at 15k now. 

[LilMak]

Here what I see as a problem in AH.
Unlike other games its not really up to the remaining players to save a game. We’re asking those who need to be policed to police the game and save it. Absurd. That is not the best way to rely on competitive nature humans. We’ve watched this problem to proceed via denial for a long time now. That denial has just come home to roost.

We been through this in repeat cycle of deflection to wack-a-mole settings dispute to solve a human nature problem. Again, its up to the players to save the game. That is not going well.

I am not a believer in hasty settings just to find a workaround so they can keep the SOP.

As I see it, either the players develop the discipline to prevent the down fall, or they don’t. So far, they don’t.

Changing for 2-3 days will not cut it.

Stop blaming HT, stop blaming the game and settings, the problem is a majority is off the rails. And HT is expected to fix your bad habits? No. Its up to you to make it or break it. Stick in denial and kiss it good bye. Wake the F up.

Much contradiction here. If the players can’t be responsible for policing themselves who’s supposed to? The way I see it is HT caused the problem when he came up with the radar and kill settings. No one asked for it. He just did it one day to make the arena seem busier and make it easier to find targets. I completely understand why. But the negative consequences over time are being felt. Specifically by guys like me, Eagler, Violator, ZE and others who provide regular targets by plowing into the biggest red groups we can find. Altitude be damned! I’ve never had a problem being that target because I could still have fun doing so. Even when hordes could number well over 50. The number of quality fights I’ve had before getting overwhelmed has diminished drastically and it’s not because we have fewer numbers. It’s because settings have been changed that have overwhelmingly favor offense over defense. It’s also forcing pilots into, almost exclusively, fast planes with big guns to be competitive. Many players admitted quitting siting the radar as a reason. You’re right about human nature but a setting is encouraging picking and gangs which won’t go away…but they shouldn’t be rewarded either.

[AKKuya]

I still believe that AI Missions loaded into the Terrains on repeating cycles will help build a larger player base.  When players see the opposing AC on the radar.  They know targets are available.  Players can fly along with the AI Mission to augment the size.

A constant target rich environment will go a long way in building numbers.

[LilMak]

Not opposed to trying new things Kuya as long as we can agree to undo them if they make it worse.

[Animl-AW]

I don’t understand the correlation between dar and country gang bangs. Individual fights, maybe, you give good examples, I just don't see it as something that causes full country hordes.

Dar bars alone tell where a mass is. Even dot dar is enough to go by. Goid example was the scenario.

Not something I’m willing to debate. Its just not my focus.

The thing is, full country hordes can get by in two country situations like scenarios. In 3 country, WHICH WILL NOT EVER CHANGE, is one side just gets mashed. When its one country the common loser you get log offs, and that accelerates it.

Basically you have two countries bullying one most times.
Sometimes I even think there us communication between the two. Because msny things seem to be done in unison.

Point is, constant mashing on one country snd you can shoot beer cans for a fight. Thats the reality. Your number loss is on the nits side. Like it or not, the proof IS in the pudding.

[AKKuya]

Not opposed to trying new things Kuya as long as we can agree to undo them if they make it worse.

I'm sure the programs can be removed from the terrains.  That's a decision for Hitech to implement.  Would he allow players to design them?  Yes.  He won't make the time.  Players submit the design programs and Hitech adds them to the terrains.

Just my guess on how to implement this feature.

[LilMak]

I don’t understand the correlation between dar and country gang bangs. Individual fights, maybe, you give good examples, I just don't see it as something that causes full country hordes.

OK. Let’s say I decide to take off alone and head towards a large darbar. I get a good amount of altitude (10k) and the first thing I come across is a set of bombers at 6k outside all radar rings. I decide to engage. Before I even start my attack, every enemy fighter behind instantly knows I’m there and which direction I’m facing since I’m in icon range of the bombers. As soon as I make a turn every single fighter (let’s say 5 of them) behind those bombers knows what I’m doing and I haven’t even fired a shot. They know exactly where I am in relation to the bombers. They can see me make my turn. I get one pass and kill a drone. By the time I zoom up after my pass, all enemy fighters are already pointing EXACTLY where I am. Two have closed the distance and are able to set up as perfectly as possible to attack me. Now I’m defensive against two enemy fighters who were able to set up before I knew where they were and need to abandon my attack on the bombers. I do a good job evading those two for a couple turns but I’ve also scrubbed altitude doing it. Meanwhile the other three fighters have joined the fray (who saw me on radar but I didn’t see until in icon range) and I’m down in short order. So it’s me alone against five fighters and one set of bombers. Once I’m in icon range of the bombers all five fighters who are out of my icon range have just gained an advantage I don’t have. Let’s be clear…6 on 1 and THEY get an advantage.

Before proximity radar, I would’ve been able to make at least two passes on those bombers and those two fighters who were closer to the buffs wouldn’t have been able to bounce me using radar to set up a perfect intercept course. The other three fighters behind them may not have known what was even going on yet as they might not have even been in local radio range to have any clue. But even if they knew I was there and in a fight with their countrymen, they would have to guess my general position instead of simply knowing exactly where I was.

Meanwhile someone on my team is in the tower watching these two scenarios unfold and deciding how or even IF they will join the fight.

- The first (with proximity dar) unfolds and I’m dead in short order overwhelmed quickly by 5 fighters and only killing a single bomber. Probably not coming to my rescue.
- The second (without proximity dar) all they see is me killing two bombers and surviving probably long enough that they may select a plane and take off to help.

OR…I have a teammate or two in the air in a good position to help me. Without proximity radar they might try to come to my rescue because all they see is my position on the map. With proximity they’ll probably go after the bombers that I’ve shown them on the map because of my proximity avoiding any danger from the enemy fighters for the time being.

Here’s what proximity radar effectively does. It lets a larger force concentrate their firepower on single targets within the smaller force to more easily and quickly overwhelm them. It discourages any pilot on either side from being the tip of the spear because it instantly paints a target on them. Since defense is naturally reactive, defenders tend to trickle in. Therefore it allows larger forces to more easily swat down defenders as they show up. Discouraging defense altogether. It’s also encouraged people to easily avoid any kind of engagement where they don’t have absolute advantage which is universal for attackers and defenders alike. (You alluded to human nature)

From a defender’s standpoint (which has been my major profile throughout AH) proximity radar has absolutely eviscerated the amount of time I have to effectively engage larger groups before getting overwhelmed. It’s also been a boon for pickers and score thumpers who no longer have the fog of war to deal with since they can use radar to stack the deck even further to their advantage.

In short. It rewards (locally) being on the side with numbers. Let’s be clear, it IS concentrating fights as desired but giving a decisive advantage to whichever side (locally) has the numbers. Darbar accomplishes the concentration without the overwhelming advantage. There are a litany of other reasons I think it proximity radar sucks but the primary reason is that sucks the potential fights from the game by further encouraging people to join green darbars and avoid red darbars. People will join the green darbars rather than fly alone and try to take bases by themselves. Results are two teams beating up on one because they don’t want to be the tip of the spear in the other front.

[Animl-AW]

I see, you and others think the dar reaches too far outside reality?

I may have a hard time wording this.
Sim or game?
Relaxed reality or full reality?
Player or buisness?

IMO, and maybe from a biz pov, a game, relaxed realism, is more inclusive which usually breeds more revenue.

In AW, relaxed realism, more game-like, had the biggest numbers, far above Full realism.

Finding that honey spot to draw both simmers and gamers for the best revenue to live a long life.

That said, personally I prefer full realism. No dar outside the ring.  Dar bars are fine, IMO.
When a formation flew over farm land someone reported seeing it, how I justify as realistic.

Otoh, it should bend for the new guy to stay interested.

I can take it or leave it, but I prefer less, but I also prefer the game stays alive.

Vets thinks its silly, noobs think its helpful while battling a huge learning curve and seasoned vets. Some I helped would be lost. Frustration would come faster.

I thinks its a hard call. But from a biz pov, it may stay. Its not a deal breaker for me.
The art of compromise, I guess.
<shrug>

[popeye]

One DAR compromise might be to set the field dar to 15 minutes just like the hangars, and make the dar strat affect the proximity dar refresh rate (a slow refresh rate would help find a fight, but wouldn't substitute for SA or "reading the map").  I'm guessing both would be fairly simple to implement -- easy for me to say...   

[LCADolby]

I remember 11-12 or so years ago suggesting proxy dar for a specific aircraft.. we never got that Beaufighter 

[haggerty]

I remember asking for proxy dar so I love it.  I hate talking on vox and proxy dar is a way of simulating what someone would do in real life, report the locations of things they see.  Sure its more precise than it would be in real life, but how would you simulate otherwise?  Something similar to GV dar for air?

[LilMak]

Animl -

Darbar was good enough for noobs for 15 years or so. Not hard to figure out. Now it’s more about retention of what we have and maybe bringing a few old sticks back. There is a pretty decent contingent of guys like me who are stubborn and don’t want to get in a Tempest, Dora, Yak3 or Pony and fight to clear other people’s 12 o’clock. What happens when the few of us left that want fights instead of kills start to dry up because pickers can’t be bothered to even look out the cockpit to be the 4th guy in line to pick off a single target? Even if there were any true noobs, how is making it easier for professional pickers to kill them in any way helping their retention?

Kong -

Radar rings have never been the problem. You cross into the ring and you’re on radar. Kill the tower and you the enemy uses darbar. I still think the towers need a little buff. Should take 500lb to bring one don’t instead of a single .50 cal pass. Elimination of proximity radar automatically makes the radar strat more relevant the same way it does for town guns. I don’t think it needed buy maybe…just maybe run the radar rings a bit further out? As far as proximity dar… I’d venture a guess that is as simple as a check box to turn on or off in arena settings. No work or programming needed.

[Wiley]

I remember asking for proxy dar so I love it.  I hate talking on vox and proxy dar is a way of simulating what someone would do in real life, report the locations of things they see.  Sure its more precise than it would be in real life, but how would you simulate otherwise?  Something similar to GV dar for air?

For that specific issue, reverting to dots would probably be a decent compromise.  Having had it for a long time now, I'm kind of wondering if it actually is too much info.

Mak's post makes a lot of sense, I was only seeing the upside of people actually noticing when there are threats inbound to a friendly base.  Before the proxy dar, if there were bandits inbound, people would call them out on channel, zero response, then "Where did this attack group that has been marching across dar for a sector and a half come from?!"

Honestly not sure which is worse TBH, but Mak's point was a downside I hadn't considered.

Wiley.