Re: Monday Night Madness in the SEA2--6/8/26 at 8pm EST

[Shane]

Oh, there are so very many reasons to squelch people.  Sometimes they're talking about a subject you don't give a tinker's dam about.  Sometimes they're being loud.  Sometimes you just get sick of hearing someone browbeat people over their pet peeve constantly.  Politics is another good one.  Sometimes they're just complaining incessantly about one or many things.  That's a far from exhaustive list, but you maybe get the idea.

It just makes the game so much better when you can get rid of the noise, and it is so easy to do.

Wiley.

And often people use it to avoid hearing truth or taking accountability, so there's that.

[Shane]

I'll make a video of the proper way to avoid the HO, or if necessary go nose on to initiate the HO truce. I have mostly mastered this art. The rule of thumb when HOing is not allowed is, if both players dont initiate a HO truce by both getting around and pointing nose on each other relatively at the same time, than its usually not a HO because the others excuse is they are trying to create an early angle that could benefit them in the fight. Therefore you should take the shot to avoid their angle set up. If you both secure the truce knowing youll go head on, then the angle will be adjusted during/after the pass leaving it up to the next maneuver to determine the positional advantage of the fight.

I know you're clued into DA and 1v1's so let me expand your MNM awareness so you can put it into perspective. Also not all MNM attendees are clued in about the 1v1 dueling/acm culture.

In DA or MA 1v1's there are two basic styles: kill or have fun. 
Kill takes any and all shots (HOs in MA), often front quarter crossing shots (DA). It's about the kills.
Have fun holds those front quarter snapshots and generally works to get the kill from behind the 2/10 or 9/3 lines.  It's about the flying - that "HO truce" you mentioned.

Now MNM is unique in that it's not 1v1 in any sense. It is a furball pick-fest. What complicates this is the rule of "no hoing!" with no clear definition of what a HO is - so some have tried to make it 2/10 or 3/9 shots as being "approved."  I would say there are more MA types than DA types in MNM, so that lack of clarity or experience about HO vs front quarter has an effect.

Of course, because it's a furball pick-fest with reduced vis and icon ranges, oopsies do happen. Some are more prone to oopsies because of connection differences or perspective perception of the enemy plane. Those that skim off the 1/11 to 2/10 lines are what I label "sketchy" front quarters (and I generally avoid taking them.) I also call them out as a reminder to check firing perspectives.

It has taken a while to shift from my "have fun" approach to "kill," to "not too sketchy kill" because it's a furball pick-fest, not a nice 1v1. 

Simply put, as some have said, it's a true HO if both can reasonably get guns on. But, again, that 2/10 or 3/9 "suggestion" from the rule-maker is what causes it to get blurred as it creeps into the sketchy front quarter 1/11 sector. And me calling these out on text 223 seems to upset certain egos, while calling them out on vox 223 gets a pass.

Also, most are tuned vox 223, even tho' not all players are tuned to it. Some of us are also tuned to ch223 text - almost non-existent ch2 or ch200 text. People are too busy flying (air spawns rule!) to type much, I cannot speak to how much vox 223 (or range vox) is used, but I'm guessing quite a bit.

So, yeah, let's see how you might define things.

[DmonSlyr]

My advice in those types of furballs is to always try to avoid the HO by any means necessary and set up your next manuever on them or anyone else coming in. But, if you get nose to nose with someone, point right at them to get the hopeful HO truce, but depending on speed of closure, try to still avoid it as if they were actually shooting and set up for your next angle. Never good to maintain a straight nose pointing at them for too long if you can break it and get the better angle.

[ZE]

Thanks for the comments , definitions and advice on HO. I have read that in the real world during WW2, these situations happened to pilots and the results are uncertain as well, but necessary as the only option. In our MA happens to me frequently since I fly a turning plane and die since I have no cannon. In MNM hope to do my shoot at head to six in correct angles...

ZE

[Shane]

My advice in those types of furballs is to always try to avoid the HO by any means necessary and set up your next manuever on them or anyone else coming in. But, if you get nose to nose with someone, point right at them to get the hopeful HO truce, but depending on speed of closure, try to still avoid it as if they were actually shooting and set up for your next angle. Never good to maintain a straight nose pointing at them for too long if you can break it and get the better angle.

If you haven't, I suggest you give MNM a try - 1 hr of cage fighting about killing (but not HOing    ) with reduced icon ranges and some fog layers; it's not about surviving. It's quite fun.

8pm est mondays in sea2

[Shane]

Thanks for the comments , definitions and advice on HO. I have read that in the real world during WW2, these situations happened to pilots and the results are uncertain as well, but necessary as the only option. In our MA happens to me frequently since I fly a turning plane and die since I have no cannon. In MNM hope to do my shoot at head to six in correct angles...

ZE

This may help a bit.

Red = HO (12)
Orange = sketchy front quarter shot (1 and 11)
Yellow = crossing shot (2 and 10)
Green = good shot (3 to 9)

[Eagler]

That looks like 9:30 to 2:30 .. 

I will bring my protractor and compass next Monday night ..   

Eagler

[AKIron]

You guys oughta change it up. Whoever wins the most HOs wins.

The arguments would probably sound the same. "That wasn't an HO"  "Yes it was" 

[captain1ma]

This may help a bit.

Red = HO (12)
Orange = sketchy front quarter shot (1 and 11)
Yellow = crossing shot (2 and 10)
Green = good shot (3 to 9)

based on this post id like to ask that all shots are from 3-9pm.
consider anything forward of that a HO!
When i started Monday Night Madness, i wanted it to be shots ONLY from 3-9. anything forward of that is OUT OF BOUNDS or a HO.
this is starting to become a baby sitting job.
the frustrating part of this is the "no it wasnt", "yes it was", "well i dont care". WELL I DO!!
i dont want to start punishing people, but i will if i have to to keep MNM going.
and I DONT CARE ABOUT FILM. so do bother with that!

[Shane]

based on this post id like to ask that all shots are from 3-9pm.  consider anything forward of that a HO!
When i started Monday Night Madness, i wanted it to be shots ONLY from 3-9. anything forward of that is OUT OF BOUNDS or a HO. i dont want to start punishing people, but i will if i have to to keep MNM going. and I DONT CARE ABOUT FILM. so do bother with that!

So... you're basically confirming the validity of all my "filth" in calling these out all this time.    Most of my kills are behind that 3-9 line anyway, lol.   

Out of curiosity how exactly are you going to punish people and based on what? Someone making a potentially false claim because they don't like someone? Or not believing someone's claim for that same reason (most of you when it comes to my claims.)  Will those making false claims be held accountable? 

On this note, I suggest you change the MNM info from "No HOing" to "3-9 shots only, please" and perhaps change "tuned vox 223" to "tuned 223 vox/text" 

I auto film all sorties anyway and hitting save is second nature, so... no problem following your rules. (Or not being able to back up any claims made by or against me.)  Some of you need to revisit my sig lines below.   

[Bolt]

The Lord most certainly has the most entertaining pass times... 

[Badboy]

based on this post id like to ask that all shots are from 3-9pm.
consider anything forward of that a HO!
When i started Monday Night Madness, i wanted it to be shots ONLY from 3-9. anything forward of that is OUT OF BOUNDS or a HO.
this is starting to become a baby sitting job.
the frustrating part of this is the "no it wasnt", "yes it was", "well i dont care". WELL I DO!!
i dont want to start punishing people, but i will if i have to to keep MNM going.
and I DONT CARE ABOUT FILM. so do bother with that!

Ok, here is what I'm seeing, and a suggestion if I may:

My observations are:

• Taking "Head On" (HO) shots often results in quick easy kills. Not much fun.
• Therefore there is a "No HO" rule expressed by the CM as rear aspect shots only (behind the 3-9 line)
• Rear aspect shots requires more work and more skill, and results in much more fun.
• In practice that rule is not as simple as it sounds for the following reasons:

Reasons

• That rule isn't well understood, so not every one knows exactly and clearly what they should not be doing.
• That rule can be difficult to apply because it requires knowledge of: The merge, Lead turns, Flight path offset, out of plane maneuvers.
• Even small differences in delay can change a players perspective, so those things can look very different at both ends of a connection.
• A HO can be very deadly and often results in quicker easier kills and can be frustrating for the player who held their fire
• Those factors result in contention and complaints

The solution to this problem that was used back in Air Warrior was to reduce the lethality of any rounds reaching an aircraft inside an imaginary cone attached to the aircraft propeller spinner and emanating out in front the aircraft at an angle. I don't recall what that angle was but I think it was something less than 30 degrees which is the region marked "12" in Shane's diagram. As I recall, you still did damage, but a kill was unlikely. You could kill a Zeke if you HO'd with an A8 and got a long burst but kills were very rare.

Of course we can't do that in Aces High, so I'd like to offer a suggestion that occurred to me. 

A suggestion:

• Change the arena settings to increase the ammo load and reduce the gun lethality (just two commands to add to your script)
• That would mean head on shots would be less deadly because more hits would be required for a kill
• The extra ammo would be needed to compensate for the reduced lethality because longer more sustained hits would be required for a kill
• This would reduce the impact of HO's when they occur accidentally or otherwise
• This would reduce the impact of snap shots and high aspect crossing shots when they occur accidentally or otherwise
• This would incentivise players to seek a solid rear aspect where longer bursts and sustained hits are easier to achieve
• This would encourage good ACM and the sustained gun solutions resulting from superior BFM skills
• Then just scrap the "No HO" rule and let the players figure it out

If that suggestion is of any interest, it would probably require a little tweaking to find ammo load and lethality that gave a good balance because of course there is the potential for something like this to cause more problems than it solved if not well tested before implementation. If it was me I'd want to set a beta test arena so regulars could feed back on the settings until a good compromise was found.

With the need for the rule gone, you might see a reduction in the negative banter and you wouldn't need to start punishing people. Also participants in MNM would need to do what good players have always done... Learn how to avoid the HO. The difference is they could then practice the art with a bit more incentive to fly good BFM and do so with less risk!   

As a final comment I don't recall ever attending this event, I've got no skin in the game.

Just trying to be helpful.

Badboy

[Oldman731]

As a final comment I don't recall ever attending this event, I've got no skin in the game.

Good to hear from you again, Badz!  You should take a late nap and try to connect with us While England Sleeps.

The HO thing has been magnified by the discussions on the BBS, and perhaps by the Channel 200 talk in the arena.  It isn't really a problem for most of the people who fly MNM.  If the enema is coming toward you, it's a HO.  Otherwise it's a clean shot.  Not a problem until people make it a problem.  IMHO opinion, there isn't a need to change any settings.

- oldman

[Lazerr]

Ok, here is what I'm seeing, and a suggestion if I may:

My observations are:

• Taking "Head On" (HO) shots often results in quick easy kills. Not much fun.
• Therefore there is a "No HO" rule expressed by the CM as rear aspect shots only (behind the 3-9 line)
• Rear aspect shots requires more work and more skill, and results in much more fun.
• In practice that rule is not as simple as it sounds for the following reasons:

Reasons

• That rule isn't well understood, so not every one knows exactly and clearly what they should not be doing.
• That rule can be difficult to apply because it requires knowledge of: The merge, Lead turns, Flight path offset, out of plane maneuvers.
• Even small differences in delay can change a players perspective, so those things can look very different at both ends of a connection.
• A HO can be very deadly and often results in quicker easier kills and can be frustrating for the player who held their fire
• Those factors result in contention and complaints

The solution to this problem that was used back in Air Warrior was to reduce the lethality of any rounds reaching an aircraft inside an imaginary cone attached to the aircraft propeller spinner and emanating out in front the aircraft at an angle. I don't recall what that angle was but I think it was something less than 30 degrees which is the region marked "12" in Shane's diagram. As I recall, you still did damage, but a kill was unlikely. You could kill a Zeke if you HO'd with an A8 and got a long burst but kills were very rare.

Of course we can't do that in Aces High, so I'd like to offer a suggestion that occurred to me. 

A suggestion:

• Change the arena settings to increase the ammo load and reduce the gun lethality (just two commands to add to your script)
• That would mean head on shots would be less deadly because more hits would be required for a kill
• The extra ammo would be needed to compensate for the reduced lethality because longer more sustained hits would be required for a kill
• This would reduce the impact of HO's when they occur accidentally or otherwise
• This would reduce the impact of snap shots and high aspect crossing shots when they occur accidentally or otherwise
• This would incentivise players to seek a solid rear aspect where longer bursts and sustained hits are easier to achieve
• This would encourage good ACM and the sustained gun solutions resulting from superior BFM skills
• Then just scrap the "No HO" rule and let the players figure it out

If that suggestion is of any interest, it would probably require a little tweaking to find ammo load and lethality that gave a good balance because of course there is the potential for something like this to cause more problems than it solved if not well tested before implementation. If it was me I'd want to set a beta test arena so regulars could feed back on the settings until a good compromise was found.

With the need for the rule gone, you might see a reduction in the negative banter and you wouldn't need to start punishing people. Also participants in MNM would need to do what good players have always done... Learn how to avoid the HO. The difference is they could then practice the art with a bit more incentive to fly good BFM and do so with less risk!   

As a final comment I don't recall ever attending this event, I've got no skin in the game.

Just trying to be helpful.

Badboy

Ding ding.. winner

[captain1ma]

only one rule will be changed, all setting will remain the same, as theres nothing wrong with them. accidents happen. even ive accidently HO'ed. most just apologize, try not to do it again, and move on.

we will try 3-9 oclock shots only. that will clarify it. 223 will now be vox/text channel.

we'll see how this works out and hopefully it will be fair to everyone.

Carry on--jaeger1