Who is having the numbers - subjective survey

[LilMak]

Yeah, I agree! The kill shooter setting as well. Yes, all good

Kill shooter adjustment wouldn’t work in the MA. You’d have folks with beef on the same team shooting each other. Imagine you’re 200 off an enemy’s 6 with your finger on the trigger when your teammate kills you to kill the enemy. Too many griefers for that to work. Even in FSO it can get dicey. I remember one time someone “accidentally” fired of a rocket when 20 players were launching on the runway. Funny one time. Not funny if there’s some guy in the tower who thinks it’s funny to kill you repeatedly as you spawn on the runway.

One thing that should be done is eliminate ground vehicles AWACS capability.  Since airplanes only get a vague red square where the invisible GV is lurking, make it the same for GVs looking at their map for airplanes: they get the same vague red square.  Quid pro quo, ground critters.

One exception I could live with would be a PT boat. Actually has a radar mast. Can only be used by boats who can’t hide under trees.

AWACS overall just needs to go away…in flight. Sitting in the tower it’s fine. Allows players overall view of where to go and find action. Could actually be used to verbally direct friendlies/squadies (ATC) while you’re sipping your beer in the tower. The balance (pre AWACS) was much better and radar could be countered to eliminate the defensive advantage. There is no countermeasure for AWACS.

[LilMak]

In the old days I’d defend with a spit 25% fuel. Now days I will not up a capped base. I come up another and go after the enemy source base. I hate defending a capped base.

This may have been your personal SOP long before AWACS, but it’s essentially a perfect summary of what AWACS has done to the MA. Instead of individual players doing this, entire teams are doing it.

Defense against a larger force is becoming suicidal but it no longer has anything to do with proximity to a capped base. If one or two players try to intercept a decent sized darbar, they’re going to get swatted down because the larger force has an exponential advantage. The solution previously was to up a base that isn’t capped and attempt to flank or harass the attack. AWACS has turned the airspace itself into a “capped base” because, before you close the 6k icon distance and fire a single bullet, every single enemy in the area is already converging on an exact single piont. You! They don’t even have to “see” you to do this.

[-gg-]

Air Warrior was set so you could shoot friendlies, but there were penalties if you did. Like you'd get grounded, if I recall. Seemed to work.

But I don't have a beef with kill shooter really. I don't get why someone have to take damage when shooting a friendly though. Why do you have to take damage? why not just have nothing happen? Or maybe an audible sound when pinging a friendly

No beef with it though.

My beef is mostly with anything added to the game that penalizes any player or attempts to manipulate player behavior  in the name of "fairness" or balancing the numbers.

So, ENY sucks. I'll never agree that ENY is anything but crap. lol

[Animl-AW]

This may have been your personal SOP long before AWACS, but it’s essentially a perfect summary of what AWACS has done to the MA. Instead of individual players doing this, entire teams are doing it.

Defense against a larger force is becoming suicidal but it no longer has anything to do with proximity to a capped base. If one or two players try to intercept a decent sized darbar, they’re going to get swatted down because the larger force has an exponential advantage. The solution previously was to up a base that isn’t capped and attempt to flank or harass the attack. AWACS has turned the airspace itself into a “capped base” because, before you close the 6k icon distance and fire a single bullet, every single enemy in the area is already converging on an exact single piont. You! They don’t even have to “see” you to do this.

I understand your pov

Well, like many repeat subjects, I’ve come to terms with a change is more likely to not happen. So I try to ignore those subjects (and some people who exhibit compulsive repetition) and often fail (gluten for punishment) and move on.

IMO, it is what it is. <shrug>

Repeats makes me wanna choke lil white bunny rabbits. Is that wrong?

[Lusche]

Air Warrior was set so you could shoot friendlies, but there were penalties if you did. Like you'd get grounded, if I recall. Seemed to work.

But I don't have a beef with kill shooter really. I don't get why someone have to take damage when shooting a friendly though. Why do you have to take damage? why not just have nothing happen?

Because in a conga line behind you everybody could just blast away happily without having to take the friendlies between him and the target into consideration.

[Wiley]

I understand your pov

Well, like many repeat subjects, I’ve come to terms with a change is more likely to not happen. So I try to ignore those subjects (and some people who exhibit compulsive repetition) and often fail (gluten for punishment) and move on.

IMO, it is what it is. <shrug>

Repeats makes me wanna choke lil white bunny rabbits. Is that wrong?

It is what it is pretty much applies to every aspect of the game.

Threads like this one generally do nothing, but it's semi-interesting to note how different things have impacted the game and different peoples' experiences, particularly after a change has been implemented for a while.

I was in favor of the AWACs because I was very sick of seeing scouts call out attacks and people ignoring it until it got into radar range.  If it isn't a dot on radar, it doesn't exist to a lot of people.  It improved people coming to defend because they could see the enemy aircraft.  Unfortunate side effect is the two lines of altmonkeys staring at each other and a lot of them reversing if they see something co-alt.  Which leads to a possible refinement as Mak and Lazer have suggested, only having it in tower.  Although I don't know if it would change much, people still reverse when they see something co-alt coming at them.

But change coming from a forum post these days is... let's be kind and say "unlikely".

The repetitive subjects have different levels too.  2 sided MA for example, HT has said in as many words, "Not going to happen."  He has a couple hills he's going to die on.  Edit: Side switch timer getting shorter is another.

Those are the threads that irk me.

Not sure where AWACS falls on that continuum, when he was trying different things, it seemed tweakable with settings.  But either he doesn't see a problem with the way it currently works, or he doesn't know what the emergent gameplay has become.  IMO the latter is where discussion might have a chance, if he A) sees a problem with the way it works and B) sees a solution to it.

But at the end of the day, it's probably just noise.

Wiley.

[-gg-]

Because in a conga line behind you everybody could just blast away happily without having to take the friendlies between him and the target into consideration.

good point. Makes sense.

[LilMak]

I understand your pov

Well, like many repeat subjects, I’ve come to terms with a change is more likely to not happen. So I try to ignore those subjects (and some people who exhibit compulsive repetition) and often fail (gluten for punishment) and move on.

IMO, it is what it is. <shrug>

Repeats makes me wanna choke lil white bunny rabbits. Is that wrong?

What you do with your bunnies in the privacy of your own home is your business. I don’t judge. 

I get what you’re saying about repeating the same things over again and I know that it’s tiresome to watch me rail against this. But I feel it’s truly detrimental to the game in my bones. This is the hill I will die on. Especially since I understand it would take minimal effort to test or change. I’m not asking for a return to dot radar, a new plane, revamped graphics, or months of work.

For the record, I have many gripes that I’ve voiced issues with…88s, field resupply, feet dry spawns and others. I can live with those and can let them go. This one issue is accelerating the decline of the MA as a viable place to have fun for pilots like myself and others who are here to carve out good fights regardless of score or survival. If I can have a good fight before I get absolutely trounced (win or lose), I’ll be back with a fresh new ride to be a target again. AWACS has severely degraded or, in many cases, completely eliminated my ability to have fun before I get dog piled. I’m here pointing out unintended consequences of a decision that seemed to make sense on the surface. I’m not alone because many thought it was a good idea at first but are witnessing the cost does not outweigh the benefits. Most of the push back against reverting to darbar and radar towers for coverage seems to be players that are, at least, part time wall flowers. I’m conceding that the tower is a good place to find the fights you’re looking for without ruining the intangibles that struck the balance between sim and game that have made AH nearly perfect. Without anyone brave or stupid enough to cross the dance floor, the entire dance collapses and people go home. Pilots like myself, laser, violator, and others are getting more and more frustrated with this to the extent that it’s really starting to affect the amount of fun we can extract from the game in a given hour. We are the “prey” and, like it or not, if we disappear, there will be nothing left for the “predators” to eat. I’m under no illusion that my gripe will stop hordes or relentless pickers nor do I expect people to play “my way”.

This thread started as a which team has the numbers kinda thing. That’s not real the problem at least not all of it. The problem is fights need a little while to mature in order to make them viable. It doesn’t take a massive horde to ruin that maturation. Three on one will usually be enough. AWACS gives the side with three a 200% advantage in situational awareness. Three players see exactly what I’m doing but I only see one until the other two come into icon range. This lets them set up perfect intercepts, avoid contact altogether, or plan perfect picks which not only reduces my chance of survival but the amount of actual time I do survive.

If there is an insistent need to find the enemy, lets just turn the radar on 100%. Paint every, tank, plane, ship, manned gun in glowing red on the map. At least the playing field would be even for everyone all the time. Not this thing where whoever just happens to have more planes in a local grid square or two gets exponential advantages with no way to counter it.

[Animl-AW]

Well, I think it was for new players. Doesn’t seem many are thinking of new players, as if we don’t need them.

Events

[Busher]

Was the point of this thread to achieve some changes?

[Oldman731]

This one issue is accelerating the decline of the MA as a viable place to have fun for pilots like myself and others who are here to carve out good fights regardless of score or survival. If I can have a good fight before I get absolutely trounced (win or lose), I’ll be back with a fresh new ride to be a target again. ... Most of the push back against reverting to darbar and radar towers for coverage seems to be players that are, at least, part time wall flowers.

Hmmm.  I've been called many things, but "wallflower" is a new one!  Like you, I'm here to have good fights, and my score and survival rates are legendary (just look!).  I find at least one good fight every night I'm on.  I don't understand why you can't.  Engaging multiple bandits is part of having a good fight.

- oldman

[The Fugitive]

Well, I think it was for new players. Doesn’t seem many are thinking of new players, as if we don’t need them.

Events

It was for the new players, but if old players step up new players can learn faster. During squad night last night we had a newbi on asking questions and we got him flying and dying with us all night. He had no trouble finding a fight or to understand what to do to help, he asked, we helped him to find the fights/action.

[LilMak]

Hmmm.  I've been called many things, but "wallflower" is a new one!  Like you, I'm here to have good fights, and my score and survival rates are legendary (just look!).  I find at least one good fight every night I'm on.  I don't understand why you can't.  Engaging multiple bandits is part of having a good fight.

- oldman

Let me straighten this out…
First: I don’t believe called anyone out specifically in this thread. Certainly not you. Sorry you felt attacked.

Second: I never said I can’t still find a good fight. I absolutely would not pay for this game if I couldn’t.

Third: I’ve spent most of my time (over two uninterrupted decades) in AH running headlong into multiple bandits. Often alone, low, and mostly in a plane that won’t let me write checks that my ACM can’t cash. So, you’re right, engaging in multiple bandits has been pretty fun.

But “multiple” can have infinite variables. For example 10 v 1 is a blast if the enemy only comes at you one or two at a time. Not nearly as fun when all 10 are on you simultaneously. Can you see the difference Oldman? (Yes this is me specifically talking to you for the first time in this thread)

[Dadtallica]

It was for the new players, but if old players step up new players can learn faster. During squad night last night we had a newbi on asking questions and we got him flying and dying with us all night. He had no trouble finding a fight or to understand what to do to help, he asked, we helped him to find the fights/action.

There is nowhere near the organizational infrastructure or the desire to create that could absorb a new player base and attract them in any capacity.

Enjoy what we have while we have it.

[Oldman731]

Let me straighten this out…
First: I don’t believe called anyone out specifically in this thread. Certainly not you. Sorry you felt attacked.

Second: I never said I can’t still find a good fight. I absolutely would not pay for this game if I couldn’t.

Third: I’ve spent most of my time (over two uninterrupted decades) in AH running headlong into multiple bandits. Often alone, low, and mostly in a plane that won’t let me write checks that my ACM can’t cash. So, you’re right, engaging in multiple bandits has been pretty fun.

But “multiple” can have infinite variables. For example 10 v 1 is a blast if the enemy only comes at you one or two at a time. Not nearly as fun when all 10 are on you simultaneously. Can you see the difference Oldman? (Yes this is me specifically talking to you for the first time in this thread)

No offense taken!  In my case, "wallflower" probably is an accurate description!  I just thought it was an unfortunate way to diminish the views of people who like the current settings.

Searching my memory, I can recall cases when as many as six were trying to nab me.  Those were exciting - if short - fights.  Ten would be a lot.  But I suspect where we really differ is in our goals.  You are trying to defend a base, so getting shot down by a horde makes a difference in what you're trying to do.  By contrast, defending the base isn't important to me.  If the base falls, there will be another fight at another base.  I'm just there for those fights.  Either way, I don't see that the DAR settings encourage ganging any more than planned missions do.

As I wrote earlier, I think it takes both types.

- oldman