Author Topic: Examples for DeeZ  (Read 1190 times)

Offline Voss

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« on: December 10, 2001, 01:30:00 PM »
These are not prime examples, DeeZ, but they do have the properties I mentioned. THIS is the forum this stuff belongs in.

The partial panel should give you an indication of the level of detail I have put into MY model.

These were tests of textures and lighting properties. They are not quite as good as I can make them (there are at least two properties of reflectivity I could improve upon), but they will serve to show you what you should have as a MINIMUM.

If, you have no idea what I am talking about, you should give up right now.

 

 

 

Offline Sundog

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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2001, 10:16:00 AM »
I don't remember seeing the first two in a P-51!  ;) Looking Good. Hurry up with the full P-51, will ya?  ;)

Offline Voss

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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2001, 01:31:00 PM »
Of course!  :) The P-51 is getting very close. I'm into the very fine detail work, like the trim-tab pushrods, and the landing gear bay piping, etc. The current support file system extends to nearly fourteen megabytes uncompressed (in other words, mostly text).

I'm in a hurry too! I want to get started on the P-40 and 190 A8.  :D

Offline mason22

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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2001, 02:35:00 PM »
heya voss,

check your priv msgs please.

thanks  !

Offline Sundog

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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2001, 04:44:00 PM »
Voss,
With regard to aircraft detail, where do you get all of the info? For instance, assuming I wanted to build a 3d aircraft literally piece by piece, do you write the manufacturer and ask for a set of prints? Or do you know of someone who has a repository of complete aircraft prints who sells them? I have many 3D drawings with cross sections (As you know) but I was just curious with regard to making a 'virtual' aircraft (which is apparently what you are doing for your P-51). Thanks,

Offline Furious

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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2001, 04:54:00 PM »
Sundog,

Ask for whatever information you require in the forums at Butch2k's site:

 www.allaboutwarfare.com


Lots of good info and everyone is helpful.


F.

Offline Voss

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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2001, 05:57:00 PM »
In 1983 I was instructing a mechanical engineer in R/C flight. He had as his goal, to learn R/C, build and master flying an F8F Bearcat, and to move on into general aviation from there. Today, he is working on his own full size four-seater.

At teh time, though, we both had an interest in several scale aircraft. I had known several scale masters for years, and put him in touch with a few in South Florida. That Christmas I got engineering drawings of the P51-D Mustang, the F8F Bearcat, the Supermarine Spitfire Mk. XIV, the P-40 Warhawk (N I believe), and the P-47D Thunderbolt from him. Later on, he also came up with some pretty accurate drawings of the Misubishi A6M5 Zero-Sen. I still have them, but it would be impossible to scan them. They are huge rolled sheets measuring in excess of six feet in width.

That's one way.  :)

Offline Sancho

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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2001, 09:54:00 PM »
where could I find a 6 foot engineering diagram of a P-47 of my own?

Offline Voss

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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2001, 11:41:00 PM »
Anymore, I don't know. I'll try to look up some old connections.

I've never tried it, but I understand that the plans are kept at the National Archives. The trick is discovering where they are, and then purchasing them.

You might ask Rip if any of the older designs are maintained by Boeing. Contact Rockwell, Grumman, or whomever. Who ended up with Republic Aviation, anyway?

If everything else fails I'll check into copying mine, but that used to be very expensive. No telling what it costs today.

Offline Voss

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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2001, 12:21:00 PM »
I forgot to add that ou can still find Squadron Signals Publications of "Detail and Scale" releases for every aircraft of the war (American designs especially, but many others as well). They do not include interior elements in most cases, but they do include hundreds of photographs of exterior details. That is really all you need, unless you intend on removing panels for still shots in hangars, or something similar. The Smithsonian has many of these available through their gift shop, but I would bet any good book store could order them.

Offline Sancho

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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »
I already have all the squadron signal books on the jug. And the aero detail book. And several others.  ;)  Putting a huge engineering print of the jug on the wall is just geekish fantasy.

BTW, you got any other pics of the stang?  I've seen all these before and would like to see any progress you've made.

Offline Sundog

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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2001, 12:13:00 AM »
Thanks for the info guys! I remember I had read in Air & Space mag about the Boeing Archives, however, I don't know of anyone who ever received a reply from them.

As for Republic, they went to Fairchild, but I don't know what happened to them afterward. Was it Widewing who had all of the Republic/Warren Bodie contacts? I would love to have some highly detailed plans of the XR-12 Rainbow, simply one of the most beautiful aircraft ever built.

The main reason I wanted accurate structural drawings is that they would serve to make sure all my rivets end up in the correct location, if you know precisely where all of the spars,ribs, longerons, etc. are located (As opposed to scaling it from drawings).

Offline Voss

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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2001, 02:28:00 AM »
There I can help, SunDog. WinTopo is a program that can take bitmaps and rasterize them into dxf files. This gets a little repetitive, but what you do is convert some excellent 3-views into dxf files, and then work on top of them in your modeling program. This is how you can break your final mesh into the various panels. Then, you rasterize images of each panel (you have to have images of some sort to work with) and then modify each panel with the appropriate features.

This is fairly accurate, but of course if you can find the scale plates you will know the exact measurement of each panel and feature. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Most of the surface features will look accurate, even if they are off by several inches (being uniform to one another of course), as there is no way that an image will be subjected to the sort of scrutiny that would obviate differences. Any image you create will be so reduced in scale as to make the differences invisible.

If, you are a perfectionist, the strive on. That is precisely why I do this at all.

Sancho, no I don't. I have redered some individual elements, but in the whole the only thing I've done is rendering inside of TrueSpace, which isn't as nice as Pov-Ray.

Is there anything in particular you had in mind?

Offline Daff

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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2001, 07:59:00 PM »
The best cheap option of modellers in the moment, is probably Rhino. The main obstacle being is that it's a NURBS modeller. While I'm very much a  NURBS person, it does kinda limit you in terms of the renderer (Forget about POV/RayPOV/POVray..it's old, slow and horribly outdated). If you really want to look at advanced renderes for the PC,take a look at Arnold. (A radiosity-ike renderer, which does caustics and bouncing light very nicely..the images above of the various reflective spheres is something straight out of the late 80's).
 Currently, by far, the best modeller you can get, is Mirai (www.nichimen.com). It's also very pricey. We've used it a fair bit on our modelling of facial details. They have a cheap version, called Nendo (Japanese for clay), which is also quite powerful, although the interface is kinda funky.
 Next on the list is Maya, which is evenmore expensive that Mirai (but is a complete package).
 What you really want to look at, depending on your budget is either Lightwave (Very good modeller and renderer for the money), 3DS Max (it's ok), or if you're really cheap, Rhino. (Find a friend with a student card and it's yours for $300)

Daff

Offline Voss

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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2001, 12:46:00 AM »
Pov-Ray horribly outdated? PSHAW! If it were 'horribly outdated' then there wouldn't be more then a quarter-million users would there? And yet, there is... Hmm... In fact, I have heard estimates that run MUCH higher. A quarter-million only covers those that have requested notification of custom updates (usually advanced users).

Your list covers the commercial market well. Too bad most of the programs you mentioned are FAR beyond the means of your average hobbyist.

Pointing out my spheres image as old-hat, for instance, is redundant. Ray tracers all use checker board and spheres as the 'standard' test model. The image I posted also portrays caustic effect, photon dispersion (the 'bouncing light') and radiosity. In fact, there are a lot of people that think Pov's radiosity is much more accurate than Arnold's. It just so happened that I was testing several new functions of Pov when the 'tard' reared his ugly head, so I posted something I had been testing. Something you turned a blind eye to, and that evidently escaped you, is the fact that the surface normals in that very scene interact with the light source. That doesn't happen in ANY of the packages you named, nor will it in any package that uses bitmaps for surface textures.

I am aware of all of the modelers you named (own most of them save Maya), yet I don't recommend any of them. They are all excellent, but they are not for the uninitiated; and they are expensive. In any hobby I have ever been in, it is better to get any interested parties in without incurring huge costs. After they have the bug they can decide what suits their fancy.

Those other packages will only make you feel lost (if you are a beginner) without taking a class in their operation. TrueSpace does it all just as well (in fact better in a lot of cases) then any of them and it is more intuitive to operate.

I used Rhino. I still test it everytime they come out with a new version. Yet, I use TrueSpace. I have 3D Studio, and Ligtwave, as well as a few other modellers. I use TrueSpace. I can make an aircraft in minutes with TrueSpace. I have sat down with absolute beginners and shown them just a few simple steps. BOOM, they're modeling just like that! You can't do that with any other modeler.

You can, alternatively, try a program called Moray. Moray interfaces directly into Pov-Ray. Not only that, the news server for Pov-Ray includes a forum for Moray. It has a time based trial period in which you can use it for free, but it does have a registration fee (modest). I don't use it, as I can usually manipulate Pov-Ray primitives 'by hand' and it doesn't support mesh data (triangles/polygons). However, there are a lot of uses for Moray just the same. The developer of Moray is moving in the nurbs direction right now (I haven't checked, so they may already be utilized).

The latest version of Pov-Ray supports 'sphere sweeps,' which allows you to take a predefined sphere (scaled if need be) and sweep it along a curve in order to create complex shapes. I have used this technique to makes wings and fuselage cross-sections. Spheres (in Pov-Ray) render much fast than mathmatical constructs, and appear MUCH smoother than triangle, or polygon data. This is just one example of more then a million techniques you can get out of Pov-Ray, that are not available in any commercial package. Pov-Ray is limited ONLY by the mind of the person using it. If you are creative, there is no limit to what you can accomplish.

Slow? I have scenes that take days to render, that is true. However, I almost never render diamonds with all of their requisite caustic effects. NONE of the commercial products you named offer this ability. You can ONLY fake them. Pov-Ray calculates the true physical properties of all underlying variables in order to calculate the effects of lights' interaction with such objects (given that you have defined them properly). I would expect that to bring any system to its knees. That is precisely why Pov-Ray is used to test new computer designs. It is, in fact, an excellent program to benchmark a systems' ability to crunch numbers.

PLUS! Nearly every object out there is avalible for use in Pov-Ray! Visit the IRTC (Internet Ray Tracing Competition) site sometime! Every entrant submits their rendering with the source! You can use the source data in order to learn their technique. However, most users of Pov-Ray are more then happy to allow anyone the use of their objects with only the stipulation that you cite their efforts! In other words, there are thousands of sites out there with Pov-Ray object code available for download. Too, the Pov-Ray news server has two forums for source data. This is where it gets interesting.

Most of the better objects out there do not include triangle data at all. For instance, the models for the U.S.S. Enterprise (A-D) are all avaliable. none of them include one line of triangle/mesh/polygon data. Instead, these models are defined mathematically. Not only do they render much more smoothly then any triangle model ever designed, but they don't require a huge amount of disk space. This makes them unavailable to any other rendering system out there.

Still, you don't have to understand in depth mathematics in order to use Pov-Ray. I know people all over the world that have never learned anything more then basic algebra use Pov. I use trigonometry everytime, myself, but they make calculators that will do that (and fee ones for download too). I also reduce most of my triangle models to mathematical data when they are complete (a subject I could write a book on). You don't need to go to this length, though.

Anyway, check out all of your options before giving up on any of them. Just because I found some modellers clumsy and complicated doesn't mean you will. Still, I take exception to anyone pointing at Pov-Ray and calling it outdated. This software will still be around when all the others are long forgotten.