Author Topic: Kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach... (Read 1524 times)

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2002, 10:38:32 AM »

That only women should vote on abortion laws? I disagree strongly.

That could set a dangerous precedent, and is unconstitutional as it denies somebody their voting rights based solely on gender. Remember now that was bad....

Sandman · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2002, 10:41:10 AM »

Thanx Nimitz... funny you should mention it. I don't see the laws as being inconsistent either.

Udie at Work · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2002, 10:49:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target

The trouble here Udie is that your definition of "Life" might differ from some other well meaning persons. Where does life begin?

Is a sperm a human? Why not? An egg?
Is a fertalized Egg? Why? Before or after attachment to the uterine wall?
How about at the 2 cell stage? 4 cell stage? Most zygotes are at 8 to 16 cells before they even settle into the uterus. How about then?

It is not a black and white issue and it causes so much pain and suffering because the proponents of each side are so adament. Personaly I feel that only women should be voting on abortion laws.

I understand that. My personal belief is that it starts at conception, the moment that little sperm gets in and the thing splits. I guess my post was pointed more towards the partial-birth disgusting procedure that I can't believe any doctor could even think about doing, don't they take an oath?

I also know there's not really squat I can do about it, I don't even know why I posted here because this is a wasted debate. I deplore the fact that my tax dollars have paid for some of these too. I feel that it makes me almost as guilty as the person doing it and having it done and this pisses me off the most. As a FREE American I have no sayso no choice but to do what the murderers want. Where's the liberty in that? Why can't I say NO I don't want my tax dollars spent on this? OOOOH I'm a bad person and hate women if I take that stance.

The one thing that has made me so anti-abortion, not extreme like some, is what I saw when I was 13 yrs old. I was watching what I think was the 700 Club (i seem to remember Pat R. though I'm not sure what show it was) and they showed video of an abortion (it was like xrays or ultra sound or something but you could clearly make out the baby. The baby was 3 months or so. It owned arms legs and a head, but it was still forming. No eyes nose or mouth and such. Well you see this long skinny tube go into the womb. It first hit a leg and broke the leg in two. The baby then started to push away from what was hurting it. The baby KNEW something bad was happening to it and tried to get away. Next the tube hit the baby's abdomen which broke the baby and then it was sucked down the tube. At thirteen I didn't care about toejam but what video game was coming out. I sat there and cried and cried at what I had seen. To this day I can't get that image out of my head. THE BABY KNEW IT WAS DYING knew enough to try and get away anyway.

better stop now

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #18 on:** January 15, 2002, 11:00:39 AM »

Thats an extremist and irrelevant argument udie.

Wait a second its not and it makes me diddlying uncomfortable, huh???

Where is all that liberal care and compassion for the weak? Sucked down a diddlying tube eh?

miko2d · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2002, 11:28:18 AM »

I think the common cultural tradition of our society as reflected by our laws is pretty clear:

Once you deposit your sperm into a woman's body, you lose your rights of ownership to it.

You may enter into some preliminary explicit arrangement (rental agreement, future rights/responcibilities contract) but if woman decides not to honor it - tough luck, you took the risk. No court would induce a women to terminate or keep her pregnancy.

To be completely equal with a woman, you may want to spend ~$12,000 on in-vitro fertilisation and ~$50,000 for surrogate mother. Even then you will not be able to enforce termination of pregnancy but at least you can get custody of the child.

Don't like it - wear a condom. Or make sure she will agree to abortion or to preserving the baby or whatever you want.
My wife knew that she would have to change her life drastically for few months before conception, nine months while being pregnant and half a year while nursing my baby. That involves eating habits, recreational activities, career choices etc.

miko

P.S. Wotan - please delete your "nice troll..." reply. If you are too ignorant to realize the seriousness of the issue (or so wise as to realise it's silliness) - go an play in your sandbox (particle accelerator) and do not interfere with our reading this thread.

Dowding · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2002, 11:29:03 AM »

Well if the spending of your tax dollars is the basis of your argument regarding abortion, I guess you have to weight social security expense versus abortion clinic costs.

Personally, I have no problem with abortion before the formation of the central nervous system. The line starts to blur the closer you get to this point.

Anyway, we have the 'Morning After Pill' available at most pharmacies over here for 20 quid (30 dollars?) a time. If it reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies I'm all for it.

ra · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2002, 11:32:16 AM »

The idea of fathers' rights as spin off of abortion rights is not a new one. It's just being ignored like many other politically inconvenient contradictions. You can have an all-womens college but not an all-mens college, a gym for women only but not one for men only. Women want to be treated equally so long as it's convenient. Abortion has almost nothing to do with medical needs, it's just birth control after the fact.

ra

Fatty · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2002, 11:33:10 AM »

In such a case I would say you should pick more carefully a mate who's ideals and beliefs match your own. Aside from that, tough toejam. I can't say I'm in tears that there's one less overpopulated person anyway, despite what good ol' Pat Buchanan says.

fd ski · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2002, 12:37:21 PM »

Udie, two things:

- where the heck were your parents when you watched something like that at age of 13 ?

- without advocating abortions, once could bring hundereds of examples of people dying in most grusome fashions unnessesarely. They would be just as bad. What next ? We start showing 24-hour always live "watch the poor kid in africa die of starvation" to move our conciousness ?

Wotan · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2002, 12:46:07 PM »

first of all its the right to privacy in relation to doctor patient that allows abortion to be legal.

Basically abortion is a medical issue between the women and her doctor and the state cant step and demand to know what happened.

All the other arguements are meaningless until such a time when a law is passed specifically making the act of abortion illegal.

However in the case of minors laws can be passed because the parent or guardian has responsibility over the child.

If a male had the right to decide to have the women abort there child then adulter's and philanders could use that as a trump when ever he found himself in that circumstance.

When a women goes to the doctor to seek an abortion, a current legal medical procedure nether she nor the doctor has any responsibilty to inform the sperm doner.

So basically your arguing the wrong point.........its the right to privacy that allows abortion to be legal. The women is under no obligation to explain to the state why an abortion is necessary or even that shes pregnant.

I am against abortion in all circumstances its murder. But the law that we all live buy allows it. Assualting a pregnant women is different because the medical status of the women becomes evidence in proving an assault occured. Should that evidence show she was with child and the baby was killed again is evidence and the perp should and is charged with murder.

miko dont pressume to judge me this a game called Aces High not a political forum. This thread is a troll to get a reponse not a commentary. Read the words and phrases of the originally post. Looks like an invitation to a civil discussion about abortion ey.......

piss off

Udie at Work · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2002, 01:08:01 PM »

Originally posted by fd ski
Udie, two things:

- where the heck were your parents when you watched something like that at age of 13 ?

Mom was working, stepdad was out drinking...
That show started out w/ backmasking on records and I was having a blast laughing at them until they next segment started.

- without advocating abortions, once could bring hundereds of examples of people dying in most grusome fashions unnessesarely. They would be just as bad. What next ? We start showing 24-hour always live "watch the poor kid in africa die of starvation" to move our conciousness ?

That's a pretty bad argument for abortions

And they have been showing us the starving kids from Africa and other poor continents for years and it does work. Gloria Bunker

I wonder how man scientist or doctors were killed in the womb. I wonder if the guy or gal that was to find the cure for aids was killed in the womb, or maybe his/her father/mother was. I wonder if one of my oldest friends back in Houston will ever forgive herself for what she did when she was a teenager, ever seen somebody live w/ depression for 18 years? It leaves them hollow inside and outside.

I guess I will agree to disagree with you on this. I'm not posting to this thread again I hate this debate. It litteraly makes me sick to my stomach that we even need this debate....

aknimitz · « **Reply #26 on:** January 15, 2002, 01:12:29 PM »

Wotan, thats just not true. Its the right to privacy that allows birth control to be used - but not abortions. The right to an abortion exists only because the Supremes have said it exists. (Roe v. Wade).

Udie, I agree, partial-birth abortions are a horrific act and should be outlawed except in extreme cases. You would be comforted to learn that far and away the majority (if not all by now) have banned partial birth abortions except in cases of danger to the mother.

Nim

Nifty · « **Reply #27 on:** January 15, 2002, 01:28:43 PM »

Wotan, is that your opinion or fact? If fact, please direct me to your sources that show abortion is legal due to patient doctor confidentiality.

Abortion (for birth control only) as it exists in the US is a necessary evil. First point, let's eliminate all abortions for birth control. You now have lots of unwanted babies entering the world. Who's going to take care of them? In most cases of "law enforced" births I'd guess the babies would be put up for adoption. There are kids bouncing around from foster home to foster home now, and you want to inject more children into this system? Sure a good portion would be adopted, but some wouldn't and would be foster kids possibly their entire childhood. Basically, if you aren't willing to adopt a child, you shouldn't be trying to force someone to take an unwanted child to term. Second, some girls/women would attempt abortions even if they were illegal. Some doctors would still perform them, but some women would try something on their own, much to the risk of their own lives. Abortions, if they are going to take place, need to be done in a professional environment. Personally, this argument doesn't hold the significance of the first, IMO.

I'm obviously pro-choice (but pro-death penalty until a better alternative is found, so don't ya slap any political labels on me) I just hope that most women find a way to choose life for the baby.

I'm not even gonna get into the male vs female rights in all of this. Too complicated.

easymo · « **Reply #28 on:** January 15, 2002, 01:28:49 PM »

The other night, I was watching some guy on TV explain why it is white Americas fault that 70 percent of black babys are born out of wedlock. SEVENTY PERCENT? Oh, well. I'm not trying to reroute the thread. My point is that men can walk away, if they feel like it. Women have to deal with the problem whether they like it or not. It should be their decision as to how they will deal with the situation.

Sandman · « **Reply #29 on:** January 15, 2002, 01:32:51 PM »

The legislation wasn't necessary. Partial birth abortions weren't generally done unless the circumstances were extreme.

Just another case of politicians passing laws simply to show they are "doing something" about the "problem."