Author Topic: PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!  (Read 3915 times)

Offline brady

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PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2002, 09:43:59 PM »
I just got my main computer back up and working my hard drive went out on me and I am reloading everything right now if i do not get the pages scaned today i will do it tomarow.

Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2002, 02:18:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hooligan
I will say it again:

EVERYBODY added explosive or incendiary effects to their MG ammo.  In HMG ammunition this typically turns out to be about 1g of incendiary or explosive compound in a projectile (that is like 1/10 of a teaspoon, or .5ml).  Everybody experimented with both HE and Incendiary rounds.  Some preferred HE in their MG rounds and some preferred Incendiary.

There is nothing particularly unique about Italian MG rounds concerning their explosive content.

Hooligan


True enough. It is worth noting, however, that the Japanese were so impressed by the Italian 12.7mm HE rounds that they copied the design. (But then, the USA copied the Soviet design for the .50 API!)

Tony Williams
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Offline LUPO

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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2002, 05:51:08 AM »
Quote
Tony Williams wrote:
True enough. It is worth noting, however, that the Japanese were so impressed by the Italian 12.7mm HE rounds that they copied the design.


So nothing is crystal clear, nothing is proved... :p
...we are just sure that, at the moment, 202 is quite useless even in a setup like Stalingrad :(
That's why Im asking: HT look into the modelling of MGs Breda :)
Perhaps the effectiveness is perfectly modelled in itself but is possible also that they didn't find a good compromise about realism (!) and playability (read: balance):D

BRADY:
Mate I'll wait until your computer will be ok.
I thank you very much.

Offline gatt

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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2002, 08:10:56 AM »
Hi LUPO,
the problem is strictly related to our late war plane set. I mean, if our gunnery model is built around heavy cannon armed fighters, it is normal to have very weak 2xMG fighters. I'm sure that a more balanced plane set would partially solve the problem.

In other words, and reasoning from an opposite point of view, if you give to the 2x12,7mm armed C.202 the right and historical hitting power (C.200s and C.202s were able to shoot down light and medium bombers) what will happen to the 4x20mm armed fighters lethality? They will be like laser armed space ships ... something like the F4U-1C or the other dweeb-hispanos-ships ;)
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline LUPO

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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2002, 09:54:41 AM »
Quote
GATT wrote:
I'm sure that a more balanced plane set would partially solve the problem.


Hi GATT,
absolutely agree with you. In fact the problem comes back to mind now that we HAVE a more balanced plane set.  I'm speakin about CT Stalingrad, of course. The plane set there is quite balaced...  Especially thinking that,  you know, at that time most of the italian fighters involved in operations were MC200 and not 202... (open canopy, poor boyz).

Quote

In other words, and reasoning from an opposite point of view, if you give to the 2x12,7mm armed C.202 the right and historical hitting power (C.200s and C.202s were able to shoot down light and medium bombers) what will happen to the 4x20mm armed fighters lethality? They will be like laser armed space ships ... something like the F4U-1C or the other dweeb-hispanos-ships


Good question.
Now, thanks to the Hitechcreations and CT group, we have the chance to reflect more about how the gunnery is modelled in Aces High.
Of course the melting pot of fiters of early war and late war, all mixed thogheter in MA, called for some compromises. But when we build some quazi-historical plane set that compromises show their limits...
Perhaps the solution could be 2 possibility of settings for the gunnery lethality as we have in simulators like IL2: a "Main arena" setting end a "realistic" setting for historical planeset matchup.

Offline -=Silo=-

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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2002, 10:04:57 AM »
Hello all. This is very interesting thread. :cool:

I have a question regarding HE Machine gun rounds.

We all know the Browning gave the higher penetration value. If a Browning AP round hit a wing, and a Breda HE round hit a wing, would the Breda HE round make a slightly bigger hole on the surface?


:

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2002, 12:55:48 PM »
It depends Silo, there is no simple answer.

Did the HE MG round fuse/explode on contact outside the skin? Did it explode within the wing? Did it hit a wingspar? Did it just simply pass thru both sides of the wing without fuzing at all?

Offline LUPO

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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2002, 04:11:52 PM »
I found another interesting opinion about Breda MG efficiency.
This is the testimony of an Italian ace, Lugi Gorrini. He shot down six B17 Flying Fortress :eek: and 13 more aircrafts (Hurricanes, Spitfires, Marauder, Mustangs, Thunderbolts etc.) flying with MC 202 and 205.:eek:
Gorrini wrote, telling about a fight against spitfires (Lybia 29 oct. 1942 ):
"Looking at the holes in  the fuselage, wings and rudder of my 202 I considered I was lucky.
But the caliber of the 8 wing-mounted machine guns of the spitfire (7,69mm) isn't so much dangerous. After all I prefere my two Breda Safat, that can compensate their inferior volume of fire with superior power and better concentration of fire".


Of course this is just the opinion of a man, of a pilot, of an ace...

Sorry for the rough translation: I'm sure somone else can translate much better than me the expressions that Gorrini used: inferiore volume di fuoco- maggiore potenza e miglior concentrazione del tiro... Gatt or anyone else, any help is welcome... :)

After all nobody doubt about the fact that this armament was weak. Those man were heroes. But what I'm saying is that this armament was EFFECTIVE.

Offline gatt

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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2002, 05:09:05 PM »
LUPO, your english is IMHO good ;) Anyway, I think it is a lost war. Our plane set system, all togheter in the Main Arena that is, will always penalize 1940-41 fighter's lethality for the reasons I mentioned above.

Lets try to get more fighters ... like the incoming 109E, 110C and so on. Maybe something will change in the future ... who knows, maybe a Rolling Plane Set  :eek: or weekly historical light scenarios.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2002, 05:44:45 PM »
Hi Silo,

>If a Browning AP round hit a wing, and a Breda HE round hit a wing, would the Breda HE round make a slightly bigger hole on the surface?

Excellent question! :-)

The amount of explosive contained in the Breda shell was so small that it must have been fused to explode immediately on impact to do any noticable damage.

Let's assume all rounds hit a sheet of metal at a 90 degree angle. I'd expect these results:

Browning AP: Small hole.
Breda HE: Slightly larger hole with damage at the edges
20 mm AP: Slightly larger hole.
20 mm HE: Irregular hole, skin buckled
20 mm Mine: Slightly larger irregular hole, skin buckled.

Now let's assume a second sheet of metal is arranged 20 cm behind the first one. What would the damage to the second sheet look like?

Browning AP: Small irregular exit hole.
Breda HE: Some fragment damage, buckles, small irregular exit hole
20 mm AP: Slightly larger exit hole.
20 mm HE: Large area with fragment damage/buckling, perhaps small fragment exit holes
20 mm Mine: Large area buckled

(The buckling of the aluminium skin has a similar effect as tearing a hole into it as it's unable to carry loads in that condition.)

Next, let's see what happens if the two metal sheets are two surfaces of a small metal box, affixed by rivets, simulating the confined volume of an airframe's interior construction:

Browning AP: As before
Breda HE: As before
20 mm AP: As before
20 mm HE: Much larger ingress hole than before, skin torn and bent outwards, larger area of skin buckled
20 mm Mine: Even larger ingress hole, skin torn and bent outwards, edges of the metal sheet torn off the rivetting in some places.

(Boxes like these were actually used for ballistic trials in WW2.)

In short, the filling of the Breda HE projectile is too small to gain similar benefits as from 20 mm HE or mine shell rounds. Its destructiveness against the unprotected aircraft wing is probably similar as the Browning's, though the latter's higher kinetic energy might cause larger damage when it can be converted to damge fully, for example by striking a structural member of the airframe.

However, heavy machine guns (and even 20 mm AP rounds) weren't really effective against the wings of WW2 aircraft anyway - they were designed to attack critical components and could only achieve crippling airframe damage if a high number of hits was scored.

By contrast, 20 mm HE and mine shells were easily capable of destroying the airframe without hitting any critical components. The mine shells were designed to be much more effective than normal HE shells: Since they carried a much larger explosive charge, they could rip the aircraft skin off the rivets, creating a much more serious by weakening several cells of an aircraft's wing where a normal HE round would only have affected a single one.

This discussion of airframe damage is much simplified, of course, and the damage I described is an estimate based on what I've read on this topic. Don't take it as the last word, though I'm quite confident that my descriptions are fairly realistic :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2002, 05:56:38 PM »
Another interesting note that should be considered. Aces High models exterior ballistics well IMO. They take into account ballistic coefficients, drag, wind, etc..  They also attempt to model terminal ballistics well.   Where I think the biggest improvement could be made is in the damage moodel, not the ballistics model.  The 30 call birds like the early spit and hurri, the 202, the p-40B, etc all had 30 cals.  They didnt create alot of structural damage, but they certainly were more effective than how they are in AH. Why?  Because they affected the electronics, the Hydraulics, and other important systems within the AC. These system while not structurally related would certainly spell doom for a combat fighter. And all fighters were different.   A watercooled AC would be in the same trouble against a  Cannon armed AC as he would against a 8x 30 cal bird.

Just My Opinion. I have always wished for a very detailed damage model:)  Wouldnt it be nice to see a few bullet holes in you instrument panel? Effectively taking out your instruments?  Hydraulic fluid all over your windscreen (or in the pilots eyes).

Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2002, 06:00:14 PM »
LUPO wrote :
Quote
Gorrini wrote, telling about a fight against spitfires (Lybia 29 oct. 1942 ):

"Looking at the holes in the fuselage, wings and rudder of my 202 I considered I was lucky.  But the caliber of the 8 wing-mounted machine guns of the spitfire (7,69mm) isn't so much dangerous. After all I prefere my two Breda Safat, that can compensate their inferior volume of fire with superior power and better concentration of fire".



LUPO, I'm not sure which guns Gorrini is referring too (the 7.7mm or the 12.7mm) when he compares them to the British .303, but if he's talking about the 7.7mm light MG, he's mistaken.  

The Italian 7.7mm round is identical to the British .303 round. It is in fact able to be used interchangeabley between the two guns, at least according to the documents that Brady posted today (I'm looking at the copies that Brady sent me, I'm not sure how many of the pages he posted on the BBS).

And your English is just fine :)

Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2002, 12:31:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LUPO
Gorrini wrote, telling about a fight against spitfires (Lybia 29 oct. 1942 ):
"Looking at the holes in  the fuselage, wings and rudder of my 202 I considered I was lucky.
But the caliber of the 8 wing-mounted machine guns of the spitfire (7,69mm) isn't so much dangerous. After all I prefere my two Breda Safat, that can compensate their inferior volume of fire with superior power and better concentration of fire".

 


I read an account recently of a survey of the opinions on fighter armament of experienced RAF commanders (including Stanford Tuck) written in January 1942.  This stated that many RAF pilots would have preferred the armament of the Me 109 because it was concentrated in the nose, even though it was much lighter than the armament of current RAF fighters.

The marked differences between the pilots which shot down aircraft and those which didn't was in their shooting accuracy. For the aces, concentrated fire was more useful than spread fire.

Tony Williams
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Offline gatt

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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2002, 01:39:53 AM »
Vermillion,
Gorrini was referring to the nose mounted 2x12,7mm for sure. Italians were used to those weapons since the CR-32 and CR-42 biplanes (sic!) they used in the Spanish civil war during late thirties. Then they found the same armament on the G.50, C.200 and then C.202. Just a few C.202 mounted the 2x7,7mm on the wings, since those two 12,7mm were enuff to shoot down fiters and medium/light bombers.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline LUPO

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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2002, 04:22:09 AM »
Yes, Vermillion, Gorrini was referring to the nose mounted 2x12,7mm.