Defensive Barrel Roll or Rolling Scissor?

[aknimitz]

Are these two maneuvers almost one in the same.  What I mean by that is ... during the course of a defensive barrel roll, if the enemy chooses to chop and try to get angles on you, does it then turn into a rolling scissor if you choose to stay engaged?

The link below is to a film I have that spawned this question.  It is a small film, 330kb but fun and illustrative to watch I think.  Im a Ta152 attacking 3 B17s and use defensive spiral to get down to the deck where I use what I think is a defensive barrel roll and NOT rolling scissors to cause three overshoots.

Oh, and is a defensive barrel roll the same as lag displacement rolls?  

Here's the link

Nim

Ta-152 Film

[Vector]

S!
I posted one film to our squad forum as a example of the barrel roll. Well, after few replay's all I could see was rolling scissors, not barrel roll! Barrel roll seems to develope to rolling scissors if executed with too much speed (=lack of speed difference to nme) or too early, ie nme is able to follow your "series of barrel rolls"

[Andy Bush]

Hi Nim

Durn! I can't get your film to run...I keep getting dumped back to my desktop.

I searched the past posts and found that I have to have the same version as you...and maybe the same terrain? I'm running the latest download with no modifications.

None of my earlier films run either.

As for your question, the defensive barrel roll is not the same as a rolling scissors, although it's possible that the roll could set up the chance for a scissors.

The defensive barrel roll is a maneuver designed as a guns defense. It makes the attacker have a tough job trying to track you. If flown aggressively (and with a power reduction), it may force an overshoot ( a 3/9 overshoot, not a flight path overshoot).

A lag displacement roll in an offensive maneuver designed to improve an attacker's offensive position...by either reducing aspect angle or increasing range. The defensive barrel roll simply keeps you alive a little longer. It does not guarantee that an attacker will overshoot, it only makes his gun attack more difficult. Also, it does not necessarily increase angle off or range unless the attacker makes a serious BFM error in response to your roll.

Andy

[Nifty]

Nim, did you catch Kappa and Tac going at it in Wild Wednesday?  That was an excellent implementation of the Rolling Scissors.  Both kept forcing the other one in front, until Kappa took an oscillation too high and fell out in front for good.   I'm pretty sure it started out with Tac using a barrel roll to spoil Kappa's gun solution, and it evolved into a scissors.

[aknimitz]

ah thanks Andy.  Rgr Nifty, I know that was a rolling scissor.  But my main question was at what point does the rolling constitute a scissor?  If you watched the film it would help demonstrate what I mean.  It seems as though a defensive barrel roll is almost a rolling scissor without an nme present.  Meaning its a similar flight path, only done at a different time and for a different purpose.

I wish you could watch that film Andy ... shucks!  CTD when you try to run in?  I am running version 1.8patch 7 ... might make sure you have the latest terrains.  I can email you the terrain if you need it.  I'm not positive its the same as the one on the website.  Other than that, shoot, I can thtink of anything else.

What is a 3/9 overshoot versus a flight path overshoot?

Thanks again,

Nim

[FLS]

AKNimitz I think one of the points Andy made on another thread was that a scissors describes the actions of two aircraft and the term shouldn't be used to describe the actions of one aircraft. If I understand it correctly if both aircraft use lag rolls to try to get behind the other aircraft it's a rolling scissors and if both use level 'S' turns it's a flat scissors.

Shaw describes the lag roll and displacement roll as different but similar maneuvers. The barrel roll is a lag roll.

I'm sure Andy can give you a better analysis of your film but if you're interested here's my 2 cents.

After you BnZ the first B-17 you make a nice barrel roll attack on the second one and after turning to hit the third one you finish it with a low yoyo. Once you're on the deck it looks like the P-38 and F4U lag roll to stay behind you and the P-38 responds to your barrel roll with a high yoyo to stay behind you, the F4U starts to overshoot your flight path but you reverse and don't pull into him to make it a rolling scissors. On the reversal the Niki overshoots and reverses in a flat scissors giving you a nice front quarter snap shot where you nail him. I think the film shows that the barrel roll is too predictable a maneuver to use against multible attackers. If you had turned into the F4U then the Niki and P-38 would both have had your 6 and by turning into the Niki the P-38 and F4U had your 6. The P-38 had the advantage in either case by going vertical to counter your roll. If you had flown straighter but jinked more you might possibly have lasted long enough for your level speed advantage to get you clear. Nice job on the buffs.

Andy we just got another patch yesterday. It's version 1.08 patch 7 now. The film uses the NDISLES map. If you try to log on AH you'll get updated. Hopefully that will let you view the film.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[AKIron]

Cool film Nimitz. Nice of ya to turn on the smoke so we could better see the barrel roll.

[Andy Bush]

Nim

Here's a pic to explain the difference. The barrel roll defense may produce a 3/9 line overshoot if the attacker has too much overtake. The flight path overshoot is more common and is the result of the attacker failing to make the corner.



Good responses from everyone!

I am running version 1.8, patch 6. Where do I get patch 7? I don't see it on the main page.

Andy

[FLS]

Patch 7 is a small auto-update when you log in to AH. There are no game changes but it porks some custom sounds.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[Tac]

Originally posted by Nifty
Nim, did you catch Kappa and Tac going at it in Wild Wednesday?  That was an excellent implementation of the Rolling Scissors.  Both kept forcing the other one in front, until Kappa took an oscillation too high and fell out in front for good.   I'm pretty sure it started out with Tac using a barrel roll to spoil Kappa's gun solution, and it evolved into a scissors.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/wraithfleethq/pics/38ww.zip <---Film. This is getting too technical for me. Remember, tangential loops rule

[Andy Bush]

FLS

Got it! Thanks much...but still no joy on that track. Must be the terrain issue.

Andy

[AKIron]

Andy, are you this Andy Bush?

SimHQ

If so, excellent articles on tactics, thanks.

Tactics

[Andy Bush]

AKIron

Yep....that's me!

Glad you liked the articles!

Andy