The P-38...a Mustang Pilot's Observations

[Rude]

Heyas Doc...long time:)

It's the pilot in my opinion. What Doc states is fact....now whether most can accomplish what the 51 is capable of, well , that's a different story.

Some folks think stats are worthless...well, they do give an indication over multiple tours of whether someone can consistently handle themselves against specific foes.

The Mustang is one of the finest aircraft ever built and flown correctly can kill anything. Now, thats my little o' pinion, but hey, would I lead ya astray?

When ya comin back Doc?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Midnight

Look again, Toad. P-51B at 17k no wep is at it's peak climb rate of about 3200 fpm. P-38L is dropping off to 3300-3400 as you say.

No matter how long I look, it looks like you're still wrong.  

Looks to me this way: (and I add the 15 and 20k references because they are CLEARLY marked on the chart.

P-51B No WEP:

20k ~ 2750 FPM
17k ~ 2850 - and that's a bit generous
15k ~ 3200

P-38 WEP

20k ~ 2950 FPM
17k ~ 3250
15k ~ 3350


Like Bill O'Reilly... let's let the readers decide.  

Originally posted by Midnight


Oh yeah, geometry. If Milo had to turn NNE to make the interception, that means he had to travel the longer distance, not shorter to close the gap (that's the way a right triangle works)

Your explaination of the events do not work mathmatically Toad. Therefore, it is not possible to have happened the way you describe.

Waal, I ain't one o' them thar Math-eee-matrickal geeneeuses...

but wouldn't that ONLY be true if Milo and the target started on the same E-W line.. call it the "base" of the right triangle or sumptin', raht?

Now, iffin MILO were WELL North of the  targets original position when he was advised of the target by RW.. and iffin MILO were purty dang close to the target's undeviating, straight-line path to th' North... an iffin MILO started to climb and turn THEN....

waal.. that wouldn't be one o' them thar right triangaleees laak yur talkin'  'bout now wood it?


Post that film, Mid. We all want to watch!


Or... you tell this story any ole way that let's you sleep at night.  

'cuz those of us TAS that were there KNOW how it went down.

See ya at the rumble if I'm not at work.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Hmm, long time since I posted here-

But all things being equal, if you were in a Mustang co-e with Citabria in a P-38 who would win? be honest now....



I am sure someone can dredge up his scores from back when the thing was nuetered to prove my point

P-38 rocks, and my point is simply that all you need is to know the sercret knack to make it work .

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Toad
Sax and I saw you first and advised the other element. Milo and Rude went level for speed and Milo simply did a slow climbing turn to the N onto the AFK -51's six. I remember watching him slowly climb and close to firing position.

That's the way it happened.

ALL of us were below you guys.

So which was it, Toad? Milo either went level for speed or used his incredible climbing advantage to get up onto Fatz's six.

Couldn't have done both.

And once again, you neglect to put any stock into where I was this whole time. If I had this theorectical altitude advantage, then where was I? Why would I not have gone nose low to increase my speed and intercept Milo?

Why? Because I had no altitude advantage to use. No way I could go nose low to catch up and dive onto Milo's six.

The simple fact is, Milo, at the very least had an altitude advantage that he used to close the gap on Fatz.

And you are obviously having a hard time reading chart data, so here are the P-51B and P-38L charts overlayed.



This chart does not show WEP, but looking at your chart, the WEP advantage for the P38 is about 300 fpm.

I think you also said that the engagement was not quite at 15K either, right? Hmm, the P-38 has less climb rate than the B under that alt until below 9K. I think we can all agree that we were not below 9K, as we were about 20 miles north of our takeoff field. (P-51B at max power gets to about 16K in 20 miles)

The math just don't work for you Toad.

And why do you keep telling me to post a film? I don't have one for this encounter. I already posted my film for the engagement with Tac.

[Toad]

Charts? They're right here in the thread for anyone that cares to examine them.

Geometry? Try this. Draw a N/S line say 15 miles long. Put the target at the very S end. Put a dot 11 miles N and 2 E of the target dot.. that would be Milo, the attacker.

Assume the higher AFK target climbs N along the line at climb speed ~ 180 kts.

Know that the attacker has been radioed course and altitude on the target.  Can he close the N/S line and climb up a few thousand feet to the target?

I think the math works. BTW, this is just a "math example" I don't have the EXACT locations. So relax and unclench your nose hair.



Which was it?

Both.

Sax and I were South, Milo and Rude almost or maybe even out of icon range to N.

Told them about the hi 51; told them there was no way Sax and I could get up that high. They leveled, got some speed, Milo did a climbing, turning intercept.

Hard to understand?

It wasn't a quick engagement.

IIRC, I looked up and saw the lead target LONG before I saw you trailing and had the target in ICON range long before I saw your icon.

I think you were just WAY out of position, too far in trail to do anything at all but dive on us once you got there.  

...but like I said, remember it any way you like as it obviously upsets you to read it the way the four guys on the other side remember it.  


Sleep well tonite!



I'm /\/\/\/\/\/\-hopping-/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/---------> outta here!

[bowser]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz.....

bowser

[Preon1]

Originally posted by aknimitz
I have killed 2 262's in a 202, and never been killed.

Nim, you are an utter badass.  You know that?  Could you show me how to kill a 262 in a 202?

[Hangtime]

fly in front of it and get sucked into the intakes?

[Tac]

RAMMING SPEED!

[Am0n]

Man i expected a nice smart assed remark about my HO dweeb comment.. your slipping rude!