Author Topic: Online space simulator games  (Read 991 times)

Offline deSelys

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Online space simulator games
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2002, 05:17:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nifty
...As for the rest...  Any conjecture on actual space combat weaponry is just that...  conjecture.   :)


I'll second that...but unless anti-g technology is quickly developped, I think space battles will have much in common with modern submarines battle: the first one who detects the other(s) with passive sensors will have almost won.
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Offline XNachoX

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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2002, 05:32:19 PM »
http://www.eve-online.com

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Offline LtHans

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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2002, 03:30:25 AM »
I've sat and thought about what this genre lacks and came up with yet another problem that I see in space games.

They don't use the planets.

Sure, they have planets in them, but most of the time your flying between space stations.  Planets are often just background artwork.  What is wrong with allowing the player to enter the atmosphere and land on the world in question?

About space weaponry.  I beleave that guided missles will probably be the first weapons seen in the first space battle.  I doubt you will see things like railguns or cannons (yes, gunpowder DOES work in space) except as short ranged weapons.  The distances in space are so vast that a cannon won't hit much unless its a hell of a giant.  Thats also heavy.  Weight is the bane of all spaceships.  Thus you need lightwieght weapons.  A cruise missle isn't a bad first weapon.  Even if you don't use it, you can still use its fuel if your need to for whatever reason.

Energy weapons, like lasers seem logical too as they are much longer ranged, a HELL of a lot faster and difficult to dodge, don't need ammo, and already exist as experimental weapons for space warfare.  The real life USAF has two modified testbed Boeing 747s that have a big laser in the nosecone for shooting down incoming missles.  They're from President Reagens "Star Wars" program.

Both also have something guns don't, including rail guns.  Recoil.  A machinegun will send you flying back as you fire it.  Ditto for a 16 inch gun in space.  Granted, that might actually be an asset in space combat (get in range, fire, get out), but so far from what I have seen most spacecraft right now are fragile.  Building the thing heavy enough to take the recoil is added weight, and slows you down.

Warships will probably also be stealth ships.  Wet Navy ones on the oceans are already being created that way.  Seems to me that the spaceship ones will too.

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2002, 05:49:38 AM »
Well, the thing is that unless the Vulcans come visit us, I doubt we will ever have armed spaceships... who are we going to fight against?

Asteroids?

We can't even get the funds to construct a "simple" international space station (most of the technology has been developed prior to its fabrication and proved reliable), so building two armed spaceships that can fight against each other is soooooooooo far away (my wild guess is no less than a millenia).

Besides, in case we actually found someone to fight against, we'd have to send the "battleship" some 3000 years to reach its destination. :)

Oh well, I'm getting depressed... :D

So much space...

Daniel, aka Cyrano

Offline Professor Fate

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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2002, 06:21:05 AM »
DL'd the game last night pretty kewl but really not for the i just wanna have fun beginner :)  Btw is it me or is there no sound in the game?

Offline Maniac

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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2002, 06:39:27 AM »
Space is silent :D
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Offline Chaos68

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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2002, 03:34:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by XNachoX
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dude this game looks sweet as hell i signed up for the beta, hope i get in.

Offline deSelys

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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2002, 03:40:43 PM »
Signed in BETA too :cool: !

Nacho, btw, you owe me a new KBoard...wrecked by flows of saliva....
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Offline Tac

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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2002, 04:28:30 PM »
A 10 meter long magnetic tube can propel a small projectile to nearly 4 times the speed of sound before it exits the "barrel".  Its been done earthside, with the huge problem being that you need to maintain a vacuum to achieve it. That's the basics behind NASA's Mass Driver delivery system (being researched). Just think that with mere magnets we can propel a passenger train weighing TONS and TONS of kilos to very high speeds (bullet trains)... and without a vacuum! And how fast are the bullet trains that are being designed to work in vacuum travel? FAST. Damn fast.

In space, having vacuum for granted, you could make a machine gun with those principles (in fact, if it hasnt been already designed and tested by the US gov's "black programs" id be VERY surprised!). You could also have weapons firing slower projectiles to cause more damage to the surface of the target.. a high speed projectile in space is more likely to make a hole in one side and another on the other side since it doesnt have time to transfer all its kinetic energy to the target.. and not much damage may be done, but a relatively slow flying projectile (400mph?) would be able to impact and fully x-fer its kinetic E and create some serious damage. It all depends on what you want to do with the weapon.

"Gunpowder would ingite perfectly well in a vacuum or underwater - even the ancient blackpowder. That is an advantage of having an oxidizer as a part of a mix.
Actually, gunpowder ignites inside the shell/barrel anyway, so it couldn't care less if there is vacuum outside or not."

Yes, but the gas pressure on the barrel would dissipate at a much faster rate than on earth (where you fire stuff under 1 atmosphere of pressure) and thus have less power to propel the projectile. Besides, a magnet does it better and far cheaper.


"A big ship with unlimited computing power and ammo will have a huge advantage over a small "fighter"."

Not if that fighter has missiles. Or if that fighter has 2 dozen others like him firing missiles at the cap ship at the same time.

"Any fighter would have to shoot from extreme distances and the large ship would either easily evade dense stream of dumb progectiles or "shoot down" scattered ones with it's own bullets."

Large ships have larger inertias to overcome, no matter how poweful an engine it has.Besides, a spray of bullets is hard to evade with such big vessels.. quite a few are likely to hit. A fighter on the other hand would be able to "jink" to avoid defensive fire and get close to the cap ship (though I doubt getting close to a cap ship would be something a fighter would want to do hehe) . I would also consider shooting down a bullet with another bullet to be not only extremely improbable, but also impractical. A missile, being large and having an engine perhaps, but not a bullet.
 
"An x-ray laser nuclear warhead/torpedo launched from far away and detonated miles from the target to direct a pack of light-speed X-ray beams at the target would be a logical device."

Too expensive imo. Remember your best weapons are done by the lowest bidder. ;)

Magnetic rail guns do not create recoil. Magnets do all the work.

Offline XNachoX

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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2002, 04:52:36 PM »
Yes..that game does look sweet as hell.  signed up the other day, and if you look in the message boards u can find some pretty interesting things about how they use physics and stuff, and yes,  those are videos and Screenshots from the game :D

Offline Chaos68

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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2002, 04:58:35 PM »
the ingame video looks sweet as all hell.

the sound of the missle thing hitting the ship is good.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2002, 06:30:10 PM »
Quote
Actually, gunpowder ignites inside the shell/barrel anyway, so it couldn't care less if there is vacuum outside or not."

Yes, but the gas pressure on the barrel would dissipate at a much faster rate than on earth (where you fire stuff under 1 atmosphere of pressure) and thus have less power to propel the projectile.

I'd have thought the projectile would travel faster because there wouldn't be a buildup of air in the barrel in front of the projectile.

Offline deSelys

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« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2002, 03:54:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tac


"Gunpowder would ingite perfectly well in a vacuum or underwater - even the ancient blackpowder. That is an advantage of having an oxidizer as a part of a mix.
Actually, gunpowder ignites inside the shell/barrel anyway, so it couldn't care less if there is vacuum outside or not."

Yes, but the gas pressure on the barrel would dissipate at a much faster rate than on earth (where you fire stuff under 1 atmosphere of pressure) and thus have less power to propel the projectile. Besides, a magnet does it better and far cheaper.


Wrong. Outside atmosphere has only a negative effect on the pressure inside the barrel (relative pressure= pressure inside - pressure outside). Hence, muzzle velocity would be higher in vacuum.

But this kind of weapon would only be useful at very short range as a last ditch line of defense, or against non-maneuvering targets.

About ship's inertia and maneuvering: don't forget the limit will be the human body. So if a big ship can attain 10 Gs acceleration, it will be as maneuverable as a 'fighter', with the advantage of better sensors, better defense weapons and bigger offensive weapons (longer range, smarter). Only advantages of a small ship would be price and reduced detectability.
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Offline LtHans

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« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2002, 03:59:35 AM »
Nashwan, you are correct.  A normal rifle will work better in space than it does on the ground.  All air does is get in the way and slow the bullet down.  Hell, you don't even need a rifle in space.  A smoothbore will work fine because even with the bullet spinning in a random direction, there is no air to cause the bullet to hook like a curveball.

However, it does have recoil which will send the shooter backwards.

Quote
Magnetic rail guns do not create recoil. Magnets do all the work.


Wrong, that is not how physics works.  It is irrelavent how you move an object.  Gunpowder, muscle power, magnetic, they all work the same.  For every action there is an equal and oposite reaction.  You fling a solid hunk of steel out a railgun, it will push back on the railgun (and the spaceship it is mounted on).  For example a 1 kilogram bullet flung out of a 10 kilogram railgun at a speed of 100 meters per second will send the railgun backwards at a speed of 10 meters per second.  Force = Mass * Speed.

Railguns do have one way that they could be used that do NOT create recoil...well, they do, but using two railguns in opposition and firing them both at the same time.  Build two accelerators in a ring shape, one accelerating a bullet clockwise, and another counterclockwise.  If you only build one accelerator ring the bullet will accelerate inside the ring one direction, causing the ship to rotate the oposite direction.  With two they counteract each other.

Then at the right time you shut off the magnets and open doors on the rings leting the bullets fly off on a tangent.

This was the way the Dreadnaught Corvette you controlled in the first Independence War worked.  It basically was a detachable space shuttle on the front (you never took it down into a planet atmosphere though, but it was a shuttlecraft), a particle acelerator ring in the middle (instead of a railgun), and a big rocket engine nozzle on the back.  

Hans.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2002, 04:04:41 AM by LtHans »

Offline LtHans

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« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2002, 04:12:07 AM »
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Well, the thing is that unless the Vulcans come visit us, I doubt we will ever have armed spaceships.  Who are we going to fight against?


Despite what Star Trek would have you beleave, the future is going to be the same as today.  We're going to be shooting at each other, just with new methods and in new locations.  People will fight over something.  We always have, we always will.

Hans.