Author Topic: Fighting In The Vertical Plane  (Read 530 times)

Offline Dead Man Flying

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Fighting In The Vertical Plane
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2002, 02:46:00 PM »
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
What Im suggesting is that some planes need more time to setup a decent attack while having survival chances in a outnumbered environment, others need less time.
[/B]

And what I'm suggesting is that this is not necessarily true.  The numbers support my position, not yours.  Players who fly all different types of aircraft possess K/T ranging all over the place.  If it is intrinsically easier to set up a decent attack in Spits than in anything else, we should expect Spit pilots, on average, to demonstrate significantly higher K/T than people who fly other planes.  We just don't see this, and in fact I'd venture that of the top ten players in terms of K/T, only one or two fly Spits regularly.  I just looked up some more Spit drivers that I consider to be good pilots, and their K/T ranged from 0.0008 to 0.0016 (out of five pilots).

Try proving me wrong by providing evidence rather than gut feelings.  I get this sense that you feel the need to belittle the Spit by assigning to it properties and qualities that it simply does not possess.  It's yet another pathetic and misplaced superiority complex.

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About your list of planes "beating" the spit, the only ones that have remote chances of being as favorable as spit for K/T are Ki and N1KJ. Zeke is a stone at hi and medium speeds and a poor diver while the Spit is very good at any speed and probably the best diver. Ki is slower and worse climber, N1K2 may be on par with spit at low level, but at medium and hi alts is frankly much worse than spit. Add two hispanos to the cocktail and the result is the plane with much better chances of getting more kills per hour played than anyother in the hangar.


How many furballs do you know of that occur at high and medium alts?  Most occur under 10k, where all of the planes you've mentioned perform admirably.  In addition, the centerline cannons on the Ki-61 tear planes to shred -- I find them every bit as effective as Hispanos.  Though ballistically inferior to the Hispano 20mm, the four 20mm cannons on the N1K easily equate to two Hispanos... plus the N1K possesses a lot more ammo than the Spit.  And don't even get me started on just how much damage the Zeke can take before finally coming apart.

I just checked the K/T stats on some of the better known Ki-61 and N1K pilots.  For the Ki-61, K/T ranges from 0.0007 to 0.0028 and the N1K ranges from 0.0010 to 0.0029.  Those numbers sure seem a lot like the Spit numbers.  In other words... you're wrong.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2002, 02:49:50 PM »
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


And now you've just hit upon exactly why K/D is such a poor objective measure of skill. What Khan does is boring, at least to me, and it takes more patience than skill. You also raise a question of which measures deserve more merit. If we go by K/T rather than K/D, Khan ranks poorly (under 0.0020 in every tour I checked). In addition, his K/S appears mediocre given the way he flies (~2 most tours).

-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]


If you think Khan's is low, just check my K/S and K/T. ;)

However, there's good reason for this. Like you, I am not into the numbers game. I prefer to focus on the "team effort". Therefore, when I log on, I look for the location that needs the greatest aid and that's where I go. Invariably, this results in taking off from airfields under direct attack. As everyone knows, this usually leads to very short, violent sorties.

Frequently, should the radar be down, I'll fly a recon profile (for this I prefer a fast climber with good speed, such as the Yak-9U or even a Tempest). Once over the area in question, I feed info back via the text buffer. Last night, I spent 40 minutes circling enemy airfields and locating task forces. In both cases, our attacking forces had realtime data that gave them a clear picture of what awaited them. During recon runs, you rarely get into a fight. There's two main reasons for this: First, you're usually too high to reach without the prospective attacker getting vulched in the climbout. So, almost no one tries to come up. Second, your value is in being alive. Diving into a horde is simply a good way to waste that value.

Guys who spend a significant amount of time in vehicles, ships or PTs generally have very low K/T and K/S numbers. Much of their time is spent in transit from place to place. So, these numbers really don't reflect on their ability as much as their mission profiles and vehicle selection.

As you indicate, anyone can fly a 262 and cherry pick easy kills with little risk. Moreover, if that gives someone satisfaction, then by all means let them have at it. But, for me, I prefer to play a different role.

Of course, K/D is an equally poor measure of ability, or more accurately, combat flying skill. I have personally encountered pilots who gave me a very hard time, whose K/D stats would be considered little more than average. However, if one looks at what they fly and the missions they fly, you discover that the stats merely reflect the mission profiles rather than their skill level.
Naturally, some poor pilots may rely on this to pad their lack of skill, but who cares anyway?

Personally, I look at two things:
1) Am I enjoying myself?
2) Am I contributing to the team?

If the answer to both is yes, then the numbers are meaningless. Except that is, to those who need the positive reinforcement that such stats may provide.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Nath[BDP]

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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2002, 02:51:47 PM »
omg owned

i can c mandobles syntax skillz are commensurate with his flying skillz

thx drive thru
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vocalist of the year


Offline Apache

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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2002, 03:15:01 PM »
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Guys who spend a significant amount of time in vehicles, ships or PTs generally have very low K/T and K/S numbers. Much of their time is spent in transit from place to place. So, these numbers really don't reflect on their ability as much as their mission profiles and vehicle selection.


Fighter k/t and k/s affect only that (fighter)category. If I were to spend time gunning on a CV for example, it has no bearing on my fighter stats.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2002, 03:24:10 PM »
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Originally posted by Apache


Fighter k/t and k/s affect only that (fighter)category. If I were to spend time gunning on a CV for example, it has no bearing on my fighter stats.


I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Apache

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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2002, 03:26:25 PM »
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Originally posted by Widewing


I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

My regards,

Widewing


You're quite welcome.

BTW, thanks for the clear last night.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2002, 03:56:51 PM »
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Originally posted by Apache


You're quite welcome.

BTW, thanks for the clear last night.


It's my pleasure, anytime the need arises.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2002, 04:54:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
Once you learn how to kill without turning, it's pretty easy to get kills and live in anything fast.  Speed kills.


Good gunnery is a must to be *really* effective using that style.
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline bowser

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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2002, 05:41:17 PM »
"...being entirely unpredictable is often the best move in the bag. .."

Good point.  Using the p-51 as an example, I'll expect the con to extend as most do, and so I just continue on merrily.  Meanwhile, the guy has make a made an aggressive move and is on my 6!  Has happened a few times.

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Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2002, 05:58:44 PM »
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Originally posted by bowser
"...being entirely unpredictable is often the best move in the bag. .."

The FW190A5 is a great example of this...less than %50 gas,0 mg's and 250 rounds cannon is all you need to surprise the hell out of Spit's/Niki's and the like...:cool:
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