Author Topic: FM - IL-2 vs AH  (Read 1145 times)

Offline Voss

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2002, 10:16:25 AM »
Sorry, Niklas. I know some of the best airplanes had severe problems, and it is true that many, many war time pilots that flew the 109 complained of this trait (no elbow room). I can tell you when the fact came to light, but only approximately. In 1939 things were quite a bit different. Not one of the Allies had examined a 109 and it was held in awe. Just a year (perhaps year-and-a-half) later they had a 109F, that had fallen into their hands. This aircraft was tested by as many as two dozen British boys, all of whom agreed: the 109 had severe shortcomings, and one had to respect the pilots that flew her successfully. This is not propaganda, as why dispell untruths to the very men who needed accurate information in defense of Britain?

As for slamming the Jug: Gabreski (GRHS) himself quite often stated that he preferred low level work. His story can attest to the dangers involved in that undertaking.

However, thanks for confirming my suspiscion that NONE of the 109's trim surfaces were in-flight adjustable. Cutaway views of the time can't be trusted in accuracy, and it seems everyone that came later (in that field) simply plagiarized wartime artists.

I can tell you that the 109 DID NOT have an adjustable incidence line on the elevator stab. You are thinking about the 190. The 109 was fixed quite solidly.

I will agree that several Allied machines suffered likewise (though not from elbow room). The P51D suffered from a new trait that previous machines had not: all it took was one hit to bring it down. Every other Mustang from the P51 (originally named Apache) to the P51C was known for its ability to take considerable abuse.

Ah, well, sorry mate. If you're tired of reading it now, stop reading, 'cause the truth hurts.

Offline Voss

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2002, 10:25:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]
Niklas- 50lbs would be in the "range" I quoted of between 40-60lbs. 350mph@10k would be an operational flight speed too would it not? I was not referring to the ability "on the ground" after all.

And I was aware of the changes by the F and later G model, these IIRC affected mostly the ailerons at higher speeds. The Elevators still had lockup issues and required trim to regain control in fast dives.

My question still stands- with this in mind could any of the 109 model had an issue where at 200-350mph the trim tab could create enough force the pilot could not move the stick it's full amount?
This is not about the 109, it's a question about trim with the 109 as a starting point. Don't get sidetracked!


I don't think anyone can argue so. The problem is as I stated previously.

Are you saying the 109G had an adjustable stab incidence? I don't recall that at all.

Offline HABICHT

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2002, 10:38:31 AM »
the 109 had an elevator trim.
it reimmes the whole AOA of the elevator.
like all modern jets and airliners have.
with the 109K4, they had adjustable
rudder trim (inflight) too

wastl

Offline FLS

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2002, 12:08:21 PM »
This leads to frustration where trim can be resettting nuetral to a point where you can't get full deflection in some directions without resetting the trim position. I asked Andy about this at SimHQ before, about trim creating more power than the pilot can exert himself to overcome it.

Trim modeling in flight sims is complicated by the fact that joysticks have spring centering so trimming off the forces on the stick doesn't leave the stick deflection in the position corresponding to the control deflection. In order to allow trimmed flight with the stick centered, sims generally just add the trim input to the stick input. This can result in more control deflection with trim than you should actually get. It can also result in less control deflection then you should get when the trim setting is subtracted from the stick position. Letting the sim change what it reads as the center position of the stick to correspond with the trim setting retains the full control authority without artifically adding or subtracting trim input and stick input. In the case of elevator trim this assumes that the trim tab is on the elevator rather than the trim changing the incidence of the horizontal stabilizor.

As for trim being used to save pilots who didn't otherwise have control I've read accounts of pilots in P-38's and P-47's using trim to recover from compression and I've heard of P-39 and Me109 pilots doing so as well. I expect it works with a lot of different aircraft since the elevator trim tab is less affected by air pressure than the elevator itself.


--)-FLS----
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Offline niklas

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2002, 01:49:32 PM »
Quote

I can tell you that the 109 DID NOT have an adjustable incidence line on the elevator stab. You are thinking about the 190. The 109 was fixed quite solidly.


It DID have an adjustable stabi, like the 190. Even the Emil in the german technical museum has one. When they did the dive tests the pilot was only able with the trim wheel to get the nose up again.

About cutaways: they´re not always 100% correct. For example even wartime cutaways don´t show the tail enlargment of the 190D correct. And all Models in every sim have it wrong too :).

But stop now, this belongs not in this thread

nik out
« Last Edit: February 17, 2002, 02:04:06 PM by niklas »

Offline Andy Bush

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Trim Questions
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2002, 03:32:49 PM »
Toad has it right. Period. End of story.

The 109 had a trimmable horizontal stabilizer, not elevator.

I'm doing a series of articles on secondary flight controls for SimHQ. The first one is being edited now and covers the rudder (before someone goes screaming into the night because I classed the rudder as a secondary flight control, please wait for the article!!). The follow on articles will cover the flaps and trim functions. Toad covered the main points very well...I can only add to his comments regarding trim.

As for the finer techniques of flying with trim...you'll find that there is the "book" answer...and then there is "technique". Most of us old heads don't pass along technique until the newer pilots demonstrate a little finesse. Flying with trim is well into the finesse category. I trim into the flare with the airliner that I fly...but as an airline check airman and instructor I did not teach the technique. Same for when I flew fighters...there were things that I did that I didn't mention to the average wingman. I didn't want him going out and killing himself.

Andy

Offline Minotaur

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2002, 04:38:10 PM »
Some how this thread turned into a trim discussion....

Trim in AH does increase turn rate.    

My guess is that the AH trim model is a "best compromise" between the real world and a simulation of it.

HTC can not simulate stick pressure with our spring return joysticks.  What is simulated is stick irresponsiveness  IE more joystick movement gets you less control surface movement.

The trim model bypasses this.  The end result is that you can trim a better turn rate.

Offline ljkdern

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2002, 05:17:58 PM »
I fly a cessna 172 thats been highly modified for towing banners (STOL kit, climb prop, etc.). When I was being trained in it my boss warned me not to put too much trim in before landing. I realized what he meant when I went to flare...... I eased back on the yoke and it stopped after about 2 inches of travel- for the first time in my (relatively short) career. I had just run out of elevator. Luckily its a very robust little airplane and doesnt mind being dropped in from 5 feet in the air. This is the result of a nose heavy condition.

Just a little trim story for the hell of it.

Offline Andy Bush

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2002, 05:18:30 PM »
Mino

Excellent point. I like AH and don't mean to be critical of the sim...but it's FM errors like this in ALL sims that lead folks astray. It seems that our search for "realism" can boomerang on us when the programming departs from RL. Our fellow simmers may not realize this and mistake sim FM performance for the real thing.

When this happens, we get folks thinking such things as trim improves turn performance, flaps do the same, etc. What is missing is the academics that go along with these ideas that permit our buddies to recognize realism from silliness.

Andy

Offline hitech

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2002, 07:31:37 PM »
Trim can inprove turn performance. Search past threads and you will see this previously explaned.

First off you need to understand that the machanics of real plane trim v simulation trim. It is inposible with a standard joy stick to simulate trim like it works in planes.

The reason is simple, when triming a real plane it moves the 0 pressure stick position. Another way of looking at it is that moving the trim tabs moves the yoke or stick. Normal flight triming is just hold the control, turn trim tab until no more pressure is felt on the control. This effectly moved the hands off position of the control.

With normal joy sticks, and even FF back  there is no way of moving the center of the stick. Hence the big problem of simulating trim on a pc.

AH has 2 effects in triming. One being the physical stop the other been the force on stick stop.

If your controls are not limited by speed or stick force you get full range of control surface deflection regardless of where the trim is set , and triming will not give you any more turn performance.

If control range is limited by force (do to plane speed) you get the same amount of movement from the trim center position based on how much force would be needed to move the stick.


It's possible to disagree with where we have the control forces set at, but i'm open to sugestion on any other method of doing trim.
Quite simply i've never heard of a better way.

HiTech

Offline Staga

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2002, 09:39:19 PM »
I hope Flanker doesn't mind if I copy/paste his post from SimHQ. Post is in Il-2 board but some points are valid in AH too:

Quote

As some of You know the Finnish annual netpilot meeting UrbanBlitz was kept last weekend at Tampere. 47 participants showed up and the event kicked off. A LOT of BEER & CIDER was consumed during the 3 days of the event   The most anticipated thing was still the visit of some of the very few veterans of Finnish Air Force. They were Bristol Blenheim, Ju88 and Bf109G pilots.
To the point. A vet that flew Bf109G-6 asked to get a swing in the Bf109G-6 he had flown. In notime he was airborne and U could tell he had flown this bird before and his memory was sharp as a razor blade conserning the characteristics of the plane. He liked the feel of the FM but gave some critics too. And this may cause a storm in the bowl but here it comes: He said IL-2's G-6 is way too sluggish performance wise and stall prone!Not to mention the overheat. Let me tell the points he said...

1) Stall. He said the 109 NEVER tried to enter an uncontrolled spin like IL-2. The stall was VERY gentle and the leading edge slats made the plane flyable at very low airspeed. Also the wingdrop was VERY slight or nonexistent. The stall characteristics were so good that they used it to land the Bf109 on a short field. The approach was otherwise normal but the pilot intentionally pulled high AoA to open the slats and then kept the plane in a stall with engine power. That way the aproach angle was steeper and speed could be kept below 180km/h at approach.
2) Performance.Comment was very short:Too sluggish and poor climb compared to the real plane.He told the 109 was like a sports car when U flew it. Climbed VERY well and was somewhat fast too. Dive characteristics were good up to over 850km/h where the plane began to shake slightly and pilot knew to begin leveling off. General flying charactersitics were very pleasant and the plane did not shake or squeak at all. Very stable to fly and NO wobbling when firing guns or lining up for the shot.
3)Views. They were pretty close to the real deal according to him. The forward view was restricted only during approach when the nose was above horizon 4-6 degrees. Otherwise the Bf109 flew in a slight "nose down" attitude and provided good view for the pilot.

Other stuff he told was that the MG151/20 was VERY effective and accurate gun as well the MG131's(13mm cowl guns).Fireing them was noticed by a slight shake in the plane but no change in stability of the plane.
Overheating was no problem according to this Eagle. The only circumstances where when U used WEP and had to run on 100% for extended time. Otherwise no real problems and the cooling system was effective.
There was more he told and I try to put them here later. One thing he was 100% positive of was that he could ALWAYS outclimb a La5FN in his G-6. He considered it a fast and somewhat maneuverable but otherwise no wonder plane. And remember..his memory was sharp and he had VERY detailed info on the 109 as well as flight time in many other planes(Fokker D.XXI, Fiat G.50bis etc.)...
-----------------------------------------
(continues)
The Eagle said that IL2 captures sense of flying and the feel(to a certain extent) very well, but handling and performance characteristics were not correct for the G-6 in some areas. Most criticism was heard about the lack of climb and the "strange stalls" of the 109G.
He also was very kind to answer our endless questions how Bf109 was flown in combat situations. Here some snippets...Use of flaps in ANY combat maneuver was NONEXISTENT. It killed the speed too much and flaps were too slow to operate in a combat situation. Speed was life!
Use of propellor pitch. The manual pitch trim was used in some occasions like when above 5.7km and when a desired rpm/ata combo was to be set. The pitch could also be used to slow down the plane in certain combat maneuvers and force the enemy to overshoot or spoil his aim.
The leading edge slats. They popped in or out instantly on certain angles of attacks and did NOT slide continuously like in IL-2. When they opened the plane could be flown in great AoA quite effortlessly and still maintain good handling. Some pilots popped them open prior landing to give more authority on ailerons.
Landing of 109 was not too hard when You followed the instructions. As the Eagle said:"..when the plane bounces the pilot has made a mistake.." Take off required the use of rudder, but again not too difficult when proper procedures were followed by the pilot.
Trim. Was used in take-off and landing mostly. In some combat maneuvers it could be used to tighten the turns, but usually(according to this Eagle) he did not use it very much since he said he could always pull enough on the stick to make the plane turn. Some planes had rudder trims, but not all. The planes with the higher wooden tail had it, but as Finns changed the tails to the "older" lower metallic ones, the feature was removed. The tail change was due to the excess weight it added to the plane. Also the metallic tail section was tougher and easier to repair.
Gunnery. He said it was VERY hard to hit a moving target in a 3D environment. This is well modelled in IL-2. Only thing he added was the use of gun pods in Bf109. They did affect the performance a bit, but not so much as some sources tell. Kyösti "Kössi" Karhila was one of the Bf109G-6/R-6 pilots and he liked the plane with this equipment. He had told that the IL-2 was ripped open like a tin can with a short burst of the 3 cannons. It simply dis-integrated. Accuracy of the 20mm was very good. Same applied to the 13mm. Kyösti Karhila was also one of the FAF pilots that was credited with a Mustang kill on Eastern front. He entered a trun fight against an A36 Apache(P51A?) with his G-6/R-6. The turn circle was EVEN and when the A36 pilot became impatient and tried to make his turn a bit tighter the plane wobbled in a near stall..Kössi saw his opportunity and cut the throttle and made a slight pull to get lead on the A36..a short burst of the 3 x 20mm and the A36 was no more. So as U can see the G-6/R-6 was NOT a sluggish gun boat only  
More to come if You are interested...

Offline mrfish

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2002, 10:24:25 PM »
thats  great piece - glad you snipped it :)

Offline Kweassa

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2002, 11:02:18 PM »
A little observation..


 ISN'T IT GREAT we're having a "This game" vs "Other game"
 conversation and not slinging mud at each other?? :D

 Maybe because this time the words were too technical for the
 "XxXx OwNz YoO" folk to understand :)

 ps) What happened to my question on comparative acceleration factors
 on the planes of AH and IL-2??? Can anyone enlighten me :) ?

Offline Tyro48

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2002, 01:37:41 AM »
In Uniteds simulators when you trim the plane up the yoke actually moves, you dont see this happen with your joy-stick and there in lies a huge difference between the virtual craft as opposed to the real thing !

Offline Andy Bush

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FM - IL-2 vs AH
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2002, 06:07:42 AM »
When it comes to these kinds of discussions, folks often look for the "bottom line" and end up disappointed because it seems that one isn't reached.

The chief culprit here is that in aviation there are few absolutes, and the subject of trim is an excellent example. As Toad mentioned, there were many, many aircraft designs in WW2, spanning a wide range of technology. Trying to find a "one size fits all" answer is not easy. These planes had various trim designs ranging from the non-existent to the complex. Not all aircraft were designed perfectly...aerodynamic oddities did exist and sometimes defied conventional practice.

For us, we have the additional problem of separating the sim world from the real. As has been explained, trim is a function that is difficult to reproduce in a sim. The developers, when producing a multi-plane sim, find that programming each different aircraft like its real life counterpart is far too impractical. So we end up with planes that have a trim function in the sim that they did not have in RL. We can live with this!

We have been tossing around the idea of trim "improving turn performance". I think the real issue is separating the terms that we are really talking about...chiefly "turn performance" and "stick authority".

When we talk "turn performance", we are referring to turn rate and radius. These two are affected by true airspeed and radial G...nothing else....more G at less speed equals more degrees per second and a smaller turn radius.  

"Stick authority", on the other hand, is a reference to the control surface movement that a pilot can obtain in flight. Here is where we may get confused when looking at the trim issue. At high speeds, the air loads on the control surfaces make the controls harder to move...it simply takes more force to move the stick. And at these speeds, the performance values are excessive (large radius, low rate). If the pilot cannot get full travel on the stick because of air loads, he may be unable to get the maximum performance available. IF his trim function can independently operate the control surface to produce an increased range of movement, then the pilot may see some performance improvement. There are limits to how far this technique can be taken...these are the design G limit of the plane and the ability of the pilot to maintain consciousness under high G loads.

As a rule, when trim was used to improve stick authority, it was in situations such as a high speed dive recovery. It was not widely used to improve turn performance numbers...not that the technique couldn't be used in some cases...it just wasn't the norm.

Generally speaking, pilots entered the fight trimmed for the speed at the merge, and they tended to leave the trim at that position during maneuvering. The exception to this was when the maneuvering took the pilot to the boundaries of the flight envelope (slow or fast). There, he may have trimmed to either relieve stick loads or to gain stick authority as previously described.

When the fight stayed in the middle of the speed range, as was the norm, then there was little reason for trimming. Air loads were not a factor, and the pilot had far more problems to be worried about than a stick that was slightly "heavy". Trimming was done by exception. At these speeds, the pilot could reach full stick authority...because of this, actuation of the trim function would not confer any advantage...it only reduced stick forces.

Now, that's RL. If the sim is programmed differently, then all of this is moot. If the pilot can add elevator trim when in the "normal" speed range and realize an increase in turn rate or decrease in turn radius, then the sim has provided him an advantage the RL pilot did not have. I'll leave it up to the folks that know more about how our sims are programmed to figure this issue out. If the trim can provide a performance advantage, then this should be announced from the gitgo in the sim's documentation. We don't want some folks to have an unfair advantage because they are in the "know" and others aren't!

Andy