Author Topic: Kill Shooter or PNG... Which One? (Read 899 times)

Saintaw · « **Reply #30 on:** February 25, 2002, 05:53:45 PM »

Hitech,

The difference between Tac & the guy diving is that Tac has been working on that kill, the other one commin' in didn't. I hate it when it happens too.

Other than that KS is fine by me

CavemanJ · « **Reply #31 on:** February 25, 2002, 05:56:10 PM »

HT you really need to take a seroius break and fly for a few days. I've had the exact situation that Midnight described happen to me a few times, and it seemed that I went boom from KS the second the other guy's prop touched the trailed edge of my 'vators. I still got the kill cause the pony I shot the wing off of hit the ground before I did.

Quote

Tac everything you are aguing is you wanting the kill no different then the guy diving in wants the kill.

Only thing is the other guy is in a better position for the kill than you are. What you are acusing other people of, you are more guilty of yourself.

Ok, Dale, here's the situation you're in (one I've been in plenty of times). You're flyin a 51D and start dancing with a 47D-30. Neutral at the start. After several minutes you've got the advantage and a rolling scissors starts as the jug tries to push you out front. A couple of evolutions, you're 300yds back, goin over the top and his inside wing dips from pullin too hard. 3-4 seconds and he's yours. At the very instant you lay down the trigger a "friendly" comes swooping in, totally misses the stalled jug, flies between you and the jug and you go BOOM. Said "friendly" then kills YOUR jug 10seconds later.

Who wanted the kill so badly that they'd kill a friendly to get it?
As you are so fond of pointing out you can't see the floor of your kite to see the "friendly" diving in and you don't know he's there til he's in your bullet stream. However he knew damn good and well that you were there, and if he had half a brain he knew you were closing on firing position and about to open up some hot death on the bandit.

Did the "friendly" KS you on purpose? You tell me as he's laughing at you when you asking why he jumped in.

On another note the 1-2 second warning is a GREAT idea. Give it a 2second amnesty to get off the trigger and if you ping a friendly again in the next 5 or 10minutes you go boom cause ya used up your warning.

Tac · « **Reply #32 on:** February 25, 2002, 05:57:27 PM »

Almost correct Saw. I really dont CARE if he steals the kill, it may as well be an accident and he didnt see me. But what ticks me off is having his plane fly in front of mine and it does take one about a split second to react, and in that time you put about 3 or 4 rnds of ammo PER GUN on his plane and you killshoot yourself. None may be at fault, but one side does get punished severely. Giving some "free hits per second" before the killshooter sets in would allow me, and anyone else to stop squeezing the trigger, have the green plane in front take a few hits (that were already flying when he flew in front) and then allow ME to blast the guy on priv channel *mwahaha*.

Widewing · « **Reply #33 on:** February 25, 2002, 06:00:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech

The rule is simple.

It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.

HiTech

There are no absolutes..... Single-minded greed has its perils. Ignoring tracers is less than brilliant. This is why I leave tracers selected, so that teammates are alerted. I was annoyed when I was killfightered by a goomba who climbed right through my tracer stream, almost flying through my airplane. I could not see him below the nose of my fighter until it was too late. On the plus side, I was pleased that he had reaped his own folly. I feel no sense of responsibility towards suicidal morons......

My regards,

Widewing

Wotan · « **Reply #34 on:** February 25, 2002, 06:01:30 PM »

you are responsible for what happens when you pull the trigger.

SA aint just about knowing where the nme is but knowing where your friends are. If two guys are chasing a con and the faster moves ahead of a slower guy who at the same time fires its the slower guys fault. The faster guy has the advantage.

Also consider fe here the faster guy may see himself 100 yrds ahead of you. Your fe shows him "flying through you". You pull the trigger your fe sees the hits you get the damage. Its your fault. Check 6 see where everyone at then shoot. Or deal with it when ks claims ya......

Mostly 50 cal complain about ks from my experience they usually are spraying from behind a friendly (me) then when they get ks'd they beetch. I purposely fly into the bullet streams from the guy behind me. Maybe after gettin ks'd a few times they will learn.

It works no need to change it.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #35 on:** February 25, 2002, 06:14:15 PM »

I've killed myself because of killshooter.

I've watched guys kill themselves as they fire through me to get the guy I'm already on.

I've watched guys kill themselves as I fly through their kill while chasing mine which is going perpindicular to them.

I've killed myself doing the same.

Bullets fly, they hit a plane, someone's gotta die. This PNG may work for the lilly-livered people who don't think it's their fault, but if you depressed the trigger without checking around you first- it was your own fault for not keeping an eye out.
-SW

Sundog · « **Reply #36 on:** February 25, 2002, 06:40:47 PM »

everyone,
Good discussion going on here and something that has come up within our squad. I have seen all the behavior you guys are posting about here. My personal viewpoint on it, and to the guys in our squad is:

1) The MA is a 'team' player arena. That means anyone with green tags can kill someone with red tags. As such, you can't have your kill stolen, unless you took too long to kill it. That's the hardline and just the way it is. If you want something else, ask for a free for all arena. No one can steal your kill there.

2) Do I think it is in poor taste to dive and kill an enemy aircraft that a friendly has been dogfighting with the past two or three minutes finally gained position and receieved 'help' he/she didn't need? Yes, I do think it is in poor taste. Typically, I will try to stay above the fight and watch out for and other enemies coming to help the enemy already engaged or be prepared to dive in if the friendly should end up in a disadvantageous position. Having said as much, I can only control my behavior, not everyone else's. If I see people who routinely pick off targets of oppurtunity, that someone in my eyes earned the right to shoot down, I just do my best to avoid flying where those people are.

3) It's (KS) unfair. Depends on your perspective and your motivation for flying in AH. If you've paid your sub, then what is possible in AH is possible. I too whine (As much as I hate to admit it) about certain 'gaming' aspects of AH, but ultimately, it is only my behavior I can control. I have caused people to be shot down accidently by the KS feature (Mostly Squad m8s...oops) and I have been killed by it for the same reasons, but usually, the guy dives in front of me so fast, especially if I am zoomed in on the target with a very limited FOV, I don't see him until it's done and I'm dead. That's the breaks. Sure, I get angry, but like I said we each have our motivation for flying AH. For some, it's flying and respecting what others are doing. For some, it's I am here to play and shoot down the red ones, for others its hunting and stalking 'their' prey and don't like it when someone else steps in.

As such, regardless of what HTC places in the game to deal with these various 'questionable' situations, what you are refering to is behavior control and motivation. If you really want to fix the situation, make it so that once the landing gear is retracted, friendly collisions are on. That will truly force friendly aircraft to pay attention to what all the other friendly's are doing.:::Opens a whole new can of worms:::

If all else fails, use a hard deck of 10K. It has been my experience that you don't usually find any of your so called 'kill stealers' up there too often

, unless his name is wingman

SOB · « **Reply #37 on:** February 25, 2002, 07:32:08 PM »

I agree with everything HiTech mentioned, except for the bit about someone flying through you. If there's someone in a position to fly through your stream of bullets, then you should know you're taking a risk of hitting them, even if they have to dive in front of you for it to happen. On the other hand, I can't see how you could be responsible for someone flying through your aircraft...but I also can't think of how you'd solve this short of turning on friendly collisions in the air, and that'd just be a nightmare.

Killshooter works great. Live with the two times out of a hundred when someone either flies through you or you actually couldn't predict that someone was about to fly through your bullet stream. The other 98 times, you can blame yourself.

SOB

Wotan · « **Reply #38 on:** February 25, 2002, 08:07:43 PM »

I doudt any "flies through you" what you see and what the guy who "flew through you" sees aint the same therefore you have to accept what happens. If you check around you before you fire you would see a guy ready to "fly through you".

Midnight · « **Reply #39 on:** February 25, 2002, 08:38:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Anyway, I check six and see a freindly N1K (Dweeb) coming in. I finally get within firing range of the P-47 (about 500 yards) and just as I open fire, the DWEEB KILL STEELER!!! flys RIGHT THROUGH my P-51 and causes me to be blown apart.

Tell me again how you were not trying to steel HIS kill of the DWEEB laser 50cal p47? And how the DWEEB RunStang should have had the kill instead of the DWEEB N1k?

And tell me again how that n1k didn't hold his fire until he was clear of you?

There is Only 1 form of kill steeling that I know of and that is shooting a plane after he is all ready spiraling to the ground.

I fought that P-47 down from 20K when there was not one other friendly in the sector. I turned and fought with him for about 3 or 4 minutes before we were at ground level and all options of going vertical were gone. I chased him through a canyon slowly gaining on him for another 45 seconds. When I finally got within guns range, and was ready to pull the trigger, I deserved to get the kill.

The N1K Kill Stealing Dweeb (He is, there is no maybe) Saw me chasing that P-47, saw me taking a shot here and there while I moved in for the kill and INTENTIONALLY flew right through my plane, From Behind so that he could get in front and shoot down the P-47 before I did.

Now I saw that N1K when he was still 5.5K away from me and the P47. I looked back every few seconds to make sure no enemy were closing in on my six to shoot me while I chased the P47. I saw the N1K getting closer.

I should not have to expect to see the ugly green nose of a N1K fly through my cockpit as I am pulling the trigger to kill my quary.

Tell me in all honesty if you think that the above scenario doesn't sound like kill steeling, or just plain unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of the N1K pilot. I am not sure of the exact count, but there were plenty of other enemy planes around that the N1K could have gone after, he chose to get the low slow P47 because it was out of E and had no where to go. That, HT, is pure garbage.

dr1fter · « **Reply #40 on:** February 25, 2002, 08:39:48 PM »

Persona Non Grata didnt work worth a damn when I flew in Airwarrior. The AW pilots have forgotten the people that would ping you several times, enough to damage you and make you ineffective but not enough to kill. People flying would do it and people would park in GV's on the runway and do it.

Killshooter works well and is the only viable option. I have only died to Killshooter twice. Both happened in furballs where someone zipped in front of me and I pinged them by accident.

Learn to live within the system you have, this part is not going to change.

Drifter

Midnight · « **Reply #41 on:** February 25, 2002, 08:42:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mathman
Lets see, we have had killshooter since the game came out in open beta a little more than 2 years ago. Why do I see more posts in the last 6 months than I did the first 2 years?

Maybe because there are 300+ players in the arena now, compared to maybe 100 in the past?

The concentration od planes in any given area is 3x what it used to be, Mathman... Do the Math, statistcally, the percentage of people being affected by KS will go up as the number of planes goes up.

laz · « **Reply #42 on:** February 25, 2002, 08:55:00 PM »

Suggestion : When you see a green icon in front of you lay of trigger

.. And if your too late your too slow, and i guess you need to be dead?

Mathman · « **Reply #43 on:** February 25, 2002, 09:02:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Midnight

Maybe because there are 300+ players in the arena now, compared to maybe 100 in the past?

The concentration od planes in any given area is 3x what it used to be, Mathman... Do the Math, statistcally, the percentage of people being affected by KS will go up as the number of planes goes up.

I understand that, as I have died more to killshooter than prior to the influx of all the people. I am talking about the fact that people seem to be whining about this as if it were a new thing just recently implemented. Guess I should have made that clear. Before, someone would post a thread and offer an alternative (similar to the HO/ramming threads that pop up every once in awhile), we would debate it, and it would be decided, by many of the poeple that seem to think that it is a bad idea now, that it is the best solution to what could be a very big problem.

Anyways... time for my solution...

With that point you made, wouldn't a better solution instead of whining about KS and trying to find an alternative solution (that probably won't work as well as KS does in terms of keeping friendlies from killing each other) be to get bigger maps? Increase the area of the map and put more bases in, the concentration of planes per unit area will decrease. I believe that is what they call inverse variation, but then I could be wrong.

Didn't someone official post that we will be getting bigger maps soon anyways? That should cure the problem if what you say is correct (which I think it is).

-math

Sancho · « **Reply #44 on:** February 26, 2002, 02:17:33 AM »

I think the idea of killshooter is fine. But the damage you do to your own plane when shooting a friendly should definitely be tuned down a lot. Should be the same as the damage you would do to an enemy.