Spiral Climb Vs Zero

[Red Tail 444]

I was flying a Hog D at A9 at 12k. I dove on the town and released rockets and eggs, and began a spiral climb  SE, S, SW, W NE, N, trying to evade a zeke that appeared to have come from deck A9. I was on Wep, and had no tanks, and about 75% fuel at the time.

I had a 3k ROC, and held it through a steep banking climb, and I saw Zeke follow me from 2.5 out, at my low 5 OC. As my speed decreased, I deployed one, then two flap notches, and zeke,  closed in to 600 and open fire...This all took at least 10-15 seconds. I went into a steep climb to evade and went into a steep nose down, tight spin I could not recover from.

I realize I am new, and I erred in pulling into a steep climb at 125 knots, and my spin recovery still needs work, but I also have read that a zeke at equal or lesser E states should not be able to spiral climb with a Corsair, or can it?

The zeke that got the kill was TsuKa, and he didnt wanna share his secrets (Shame on you!)


Any ideas?

[F4UDOA]

Redtail,

I am a full time F4U pilot. Not the best by any stretch but I know a mistake when I see one.

Never ever go into a virtical maneuver with a Zeke when your speed is even close to Co-E (equal) with the Zeke. And this rule even applies to a Spifire not just an F4U. A Zeke can literally hang on it's prop and tail slide backwards with no fear of loosing control or spinning.  You can do a virtical rope on a zeke but you have to be sure of his E-state before you commit. Because it is nerve racking to watch him climb up your tail slowly D1.5, 1.4, 1.3 waiting for his E to run out. Make sure he is at least D2.0 when you start the rope.

The F4U is a great all around A/C in AH. But you have to know it's strengths and weaknesses. One of it's worst weaknesses is poor virtical performance at low speed.  One of it's best is high speed manuvering. So when fighting a Zeke keep it fast and rolling. If you see me in the MA give me a shout and we can go to the TA.

I am not a good teacher but maybe you can pick something up from practice.

[Urchin]

Your main problem is the first line, where you say the Zero 'appeared to come from the deck'.  The zeke could have dove from 10k for all you know.  

Even in a Co-E status, a Corsair will not be able to out spiral climb a Zero.  The power to weight ratio is WAY in favor of the Zero (the Zero has a much better sustained climb rate than the Corsair does at low level).  The Zero will climb at about 3500 feet per minute at sea level to 5k, the Corsair makes about 3000 (close to 3500 with WEP).  Also, having your flaps out increases the drag, which will lower your climb rate.  You would have been better off just trying to outrun the Zero, then coming back from a position of advantage.

[Vermillion]

Also a mistake that many new pilots make is that they don't truely understand what a "spiral climb" consists of.

Its a manuever thats performed over minutes of time, where you use your sustained climbing advantage and a slight turn over a Co-E ( or worse E state) enemy, to gain an advantage to the point where you can eventually turn on him and reverse the situation.  

In other words its not something you do in 10-30 seconds and hope to survive, because all he has too do is cut the angle on you and you die.

[Wotan]

folks screw up a spiral climb in a g6 as well. like verm said its a manuver that takes minutes.

the tighter you turn and the stepper you climb the faster you bleed your e.

Also spotting a con lo you cant assume his e state. You need to look at his rate of closure from the onset.

Zekes hold e well but are slow. your best bet would have to use your level speed to get seperation then to re engage from an advantage.

However it seems from your account that the zeke had some speed. If he caught you after you dived in on a jabo run and on a climbout it is much harder for us to offer any advice with out knowing the specifics.

My suggestion would be to film your sorties so you can review them later. It is easier for you to spot your mistakes but even if you dont spot them right off others can review them for you and offer what advice they may have.

Dont ask me about an f4 I cant even land one and I've been here over 2 yrs.......damn blue birds.............

[niklas]

a simple rule, easy to remember: When you sit in the faster plane, use high climbspeeds.

When you chose the topspeed of the slower plane following you, distance will stay constant, but you climb and gain an advantage, logically.

But careful when he begins a dive to close up, giving up a bit altitude,  and tries to launch a burst from lower postion.

niklas

[fats]

If you have excess top speed over the enemy, use it for a climb and you'll gain the advantage the quickest/safest. With good horizontal separation go nose up, roll 45 degrees and level to a new direction. If the enemy is silly he'll do a ( flat ) turn of sorts to point to the new heading and you have even better E gain.


// fats

[SKurj]

The AH F4u is not the same one you may have flown in AW3 +)



SKurj

[Red Tail 444]

Rgr the info fellas...it's a whole new ballgame in here for me. Hog's a great plane, but I totally been using the spiral climb - and probably everythig else - incorrectly. Wow. I've learned my lesson!

F4UDOA...I have seen your CPID, and I'll look for you. I fly Knights, and I'm a 90% hog pilot, so I look forward to seeing you inthe MA / TA. My callsign is Gainsie

Off topic....Does anyone notice that the Hog - C seems to be more stable than the  hog D or Hog-4? is this due to the cannons weight, or is this just my imagination? Hog C, to me doesnt seem to depart as readily, although I can recover more easily in the -D...

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by SKurj
The AH F4u is not the same one you may have flown in AW3 +)
SKurj

....ain't THAT the truth....

[fdiron]

Even if a Zeke had dove from 10,000 to the deck, it can barely maneuver above 350ias.  The only time F4f pilots were instructed to 'turn with a zero' were when the Zero was above 300ias.

[funkedup]

If two planes are going the same speed, and one of them starts to reduce his speed (e.g. by climbing) before the other one, and they both reduce speed at the same rate, the distance between them will decrease.

[Kweassa]

Rgr funked That's where acceleration factor and overall climb rate kicks in.
 
 In a plane like 109s, exceptional climb and good acceleration, it can change a horizontal distance of you and the enemy behind you into a vertical distance.

 You see an Spit9 behind you in your 109G-2 at about 2.5~3.0, speed almost equal so you are not losing him. He's just latched behind you, what do you do? Begin a low angle climb, then gradually steepen it.

 The Spit has two options in this case: 1) follow your climb, 2) maintain level flight and keep speed up, follow until he is undeer you and then go vertical to knock you out. If the Spit follows your climb in the same angle, then just keep climbing. You'll eventually out climb him. If he takes the second option, the moment the Spit gives up level flight and begins to rise underneath you, stop your climb and go level and accelerate. When the Spit reaches your alt he is slow, and you regained much of your speed by level acceleration, since 109s accelerate faster than Spits. The Spit begins a level chase again, then you begin climbing again. Repeat this and you'll find out that the first horizontal distance of 3.0 somehow turned into a vertical distance of 3.0, the Spit underneath you at 3.0, and you above him

[funkedup]

Kweassa that's called "taking the initiative".  It will work even if both guys are in 109s!