Author Topic: Since we're aviation, and I am an aircraft tech, things realistically to be done...  (Read 1067 times)

Offline majic

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I am a strong believer in the right to keep and bear arms, but not on an airplane.  Baine hit the nail on the head.  How do security personel tell who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?  No access to the cockpit, and Sky Marshalls do make sense.

Offline Skuzzy

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Devils advocate,...sky marhsals make some sense, but only if we assume all the would-be hijackers get up at one time and reveal themselves.
What happens when all but one or two of the hijackers gets up, so they can see who the sky marhsal is.  All that one or two have to do is wait for the marshal to turn his back and boom.

Ok,..the hijackers now have the passenger cabin undr control.  Now to the pilots unbreachable door.
They tell the pilot to open the door or they will start executing all members in the passenger cabin.
So the pilot maydays the situation in and lands.  Probably a best case scenario, but by that time most of the passengers will have been executed.
The plane is safe, the pilots and engineers are safe, and if the intention of the terrorists were to run into a building, that event has been stopped.

Sigh,..either way all the passengers and most of the flight crew are dead.  

Deterrents are meant to keep sane people from trying something stupid.  The insane terrorist is not going to be hampered by what we are suggesting.
The public outcry from all or most of the passengers being murdered because the pilot did not open the door would be very high.  We would all specualte what the intention of the terrorist(s) were, and possibly lambast the pilots for not allowing the plane to be taken to save the lives of the ones murdered.

I have said it before and I will say it again.  You cannot stop terrorism at the gate, it has to be stopped long before then.

Better security measures at airports is a good start.  D/FW airport has enough security wholes to drive a truck of dynamite through.
The exits to the baggage area can easliy allow entry from the baggage area.  There is no security at the those revolving doors.
At the entrance to the terminals, where you are supposed to be scanned, there are walkaround paths, intended for exits, but again, all you have to do is have one person distract the scan folks at the belts and anyone can walk right on through.
The items it takes to make a small, crude bomb can be carried onboard, without any trouble whatsoever.

You don't stop a child from being harmed on a defective playground toy by putting a band-aid on the wound each time he gets hurt.  You remove or repair the toy that is causing the injury.

I am not stating we should not do what has been suggested.  I think it is a start.  But for any security measure to be effective, the whole path a passenger takes to get to the plane needs to be reviewed and look for ways to improve security.

Some added suggestions:
1) Immediately stop allowing carryons, except those required for medical purposes.
2) Secure entrance and exits in the airports better.  This requires a wide range of ways and personnel to be looked into.
3) Cameras in the passenger cabin to allow the pilots to see what is going on.
4) Chemical scanners at the airport entrance.  Metal detectors cannot detect plastic explosive.
5) Credential security for airline employees need to be completely rethought.
6) Collision detection could be implemented to have a plane circumvent the pilot to avoid collisions.

I am sure there are more.  It is all about money.  How much will it cost?  How much more would you spend on an airline ticket?  How long will it take to implement?  How much to support it?  

Anyway,..just some thoughts.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Thorns

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Now if HTC could create a game "Stop the Terrorists", we could play that until we have solved all the negative issues, then hand over the program to the U.S. Gov't.

Personally, I don't think money has an issue anymore when it comes to stopping commercial airliner's from being hijacked.  The ballistic wall would be part of the package.  We don't make flak jackets from silk!  I would like to see three Sky Marshalls(ex Navy Seals-gives em something to do besides becoming an instuctor) on every flight, assisting us on/off the airliner, the day of the flight attendant person is over.  I don't think the pilots would mind either.  Cost is not an issue, not anymore.  Times have changed.  I will pay the price.
Let the Air Marshalls sit in a high jump seat with a Mini-Mac MG where he can see all the pretty faces.  And I can get my own bottle of water and bag of food before I board the airliner.  Forget the hot towel.  I will treat myself and my wife to a great meal when we land, and are out of the red zone and secure.  Now, can you spell revenge.....B 5 2

Thorns

Offline LtHans

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Ok, "Aircraft Tech" is a far shorter word than "Aircraft Modifications Technician" which is my full job title on my uniform badge.  Thats why I used that in the title....too long of a word in a limited title space.

I work on Learjets, Cessna Citation jets, Gulfsteam IIIs and IVs, BAe Hawker jets, and Israeli Astras.

As for the comment that bulkheads are expensive, I never said they would be free.  But to claim that they would be useless or too expensive is ludicrious.  I've taken apart and reassembled many aircraft interiors.  It wouldn't be that big of a deal, at least for me.  It's not like I am even claiming you need to do a full wall, just the door.

As for somebody saying that any pilot would turn over the plane to the terrorist has not been watching the news lately.  Do you honestly beleave the pilots and passengers of any hijacking after what happened Tuesday will cooperate with somebody who wants to fly the plane themselves?  Just look at what happened in Pennsylvania.  The passengers ignored their personal safety and tried to subdue the terrorists.

It has already happened.  It used to be OK to cooperate with terrorists, listen to their demands and let them have their way, but not any more.

Airliners need to be alot more safe.

Offline DanielMcIntyre

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I think all the savings the airlines made due to seemingly slack or non-existant security just went out the window multiplied by lots. Don't you think?

Offline lazs1

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skuzzy... the air marshalls would be trained.  they would not get themselves in that situation except in  extreme cases, still way better than what we have now plus.... Just as when they were used a lot... the thing would never come up..... Most terrorists would simply right off taking over a plane as being a bad risk.   Also... with an air marshall on board it would galvinize the other passengers...  we have PROOF of how brave ordinary citezens can be when they know they are doing the right thing and.. seeing air marshalls fight with terrorists... Passengers would not have much of a decision to make so far as who needed help and who needed stopped.  How do the terrorists know that there isn't two sky marshalls on board even if they manage to somehow overcome the first armed and highly trained one?   Naaa... we just won't see any skyjacking attempts for so long that we will get complacent and dump or nutt the new sky marshall program..... history will repeat..... or not.

As for the doors being breached... NOTHING would allow the crew to open the doors.   Anything that is happening out there would continue to happen and worse if the doors are opened....  The saftey and possible deaths of thousands of people would be on the line... they crew would have no legal or moral right to open those doors.  I would suggest that they not look.
lazs

Offline Ouch

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Here is an idea I got from another friend online.

A "Hihack" button protected by a glass shield in the cockpit.  You know, the "break glass to sound alarm" type thing.

Once that is hit, the controls are LOCKED OUT COMPLETELY AND IRREVOKEABLY, and the plane locks onto the nearest large airport (using GPS if it's over the ocean and can't detect beacons) and lands itself.  The airports are alterted by the 0777 (Hijack transponder code right?) that is automatically sent by the system.

If it's accidentally set off, well, damn, a 4 or 5 hour delay.  Once it's installed AND PUBLICISED the terrorists know that there is nothing that can be done to stop it.  It's going to an airport (not of their choice) and it's going to land.  Then they have to deal with whoever is the authority at that airport.

Ouch out

Offline Skuzzy

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lazs1,..I was just playing devils advocate on this issue.  Many good ideas are being bounced around.  I just wanted to give it a more thorough going over.
I still say the best way to stop it is way before it gets to the plane.

I am not saying we do not need sky marshals.  I just think we should pay more attention to what is going on before the plane is loaded with passengers.
There a lot of areas that need improvement, and some would cause zero delay in the flight process, but could help quite a bit.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Zigrat

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i don know why you guys are all worrying about hijackingins in america now. it'll never happen again as long as we are alive. before tuesday i would have sat in my seat, strayed quiet and hoped i made it home in 1 piece. now, i wager myselfand every other american is gonna bum rush those motherdiddlyers before they can get to the cockpit. they better bring enough bullets to kill everyone on the plane if htey wanna pull another stunt like this one, and that manny bullets are gonna make big holes which will rapidly get larger.

Offline DanielMcIntyre

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I dont think our current technology permits the landing of large airliners on runways automatically via computer pilots.

Could be wrong thou, secret tech?

Offline Creamo

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They can land automatically already Zygote. Remote? I dont thing so.

From takeoff to pavement, yes, all computers.

Offline lazs1

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skuzzy let's get this straight.... There is no security measure that will keep a bad guy from coming on board with a weapon.   harsher and harsher security measures just erode our freedom and are eye candy... We do a pretty good job of keeping guns and bombs out... That's the best that can be done.  

Plastic (balistic nylon and kevlar) "bowie knife", 6" blade will drive through a 3/4" sheet of plywood without breaking $19.95 in most outdoors catalouges....  How the hell you gonna keep me from bringing one on board in my boot?    Meanwhile you have made people miss connections.... be all but strip searched.... have no carry on and park a mile away from the terminal and haven't done dick for security once the wheels leave the ground.

Worse... what if I were to grab a stewerdess and snap her neck.... let her drop and grab another and threaten to snap her neck if anyone interfered while I kicked in the pilot door?  You gonna make everyone come on board in chains?

sure... make sure there are no bombs or bad guys with fireams.... if guns frieghten you or you honestly feel that they might end up in the bad guys hands... Use that clumsy ring thingie that allows only the ring wearer to fire the gun.

It's mot about you anymore.... It's about me on the ground that your flying bomb might hit.
lazs

Offline lazs1

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what do I like about sky marshalls and security "terrorist resistant" cockpit doors?   They don't affect my freedom or intrude on my life.  and would be highly effective.

What do I hate about all the othe ideas???  they are highly intrusive, subject to massive abuse and totally inefective.
lazs

Offline Bodhi

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Creamo,

You sound like an Airbus mechanic, land automatically, well define WHEN they can do it.  Calm day, no crosswind, the airport is so equipped, no worries, lets see em implement it when there is a 45 kt. cross wind and wind shear.  This automation bull toejam, is exactly that, roadkill.  The damn thing of it is this:

Until we beef up security on the ground, fire these worthless security agencys like Argenbright, and use the National Guard as security until a suitable alternative is found.  The problem will still exist.  You keep the wackos without their weapons, remove the possibility of their being a bomb and threats become meaningless.  

I don't know about the rest of ya'll but we have serious problems, and they require more thought than this ridiculous emergency auto-land button talk.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Toad

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"B-757/767 aircraft must be operated in compliance with Certificate Limitations of the applicable FAA Approved Flight Manual section and the Minimum Equipment List contained in the Aircraft Restrictions Manual."

LIMITATIONS

AUTOFLIGHT

Autoland Maximum Winds

Headwind   25 Knots
Crosswind  25 Knots
Tailwind   10 Knots

Note: Do not autoland when A/C when ground speed exceeds 165 knots [Toad: Basically, this would be in a very high gross weight situation.]


TAKOFF AND LANDING

On takeoff, do not engage autopilot (CMD or CWS) below 1,000 feet AGL. Do NOT use CWS for landing.
*********

CMD is Command. The Autopilot will follow Flight Management System (computer programed by pilot) commands or commands manually input via the Autopilot control panel. CWS is Control Wheel Steering. The pilot moves the yoke and rudders and the autopilot will maintain the attitude the pilot puts it in. IE: Raise the nose to 10 degrees nose up and let go of the yoke and the A/P will hold 10 degrees nose up.]

There are no commercial aircraft that I am aware of that allow Autopilot takeoff. Every aircraft that I have ever flown has a minimum altitude for autopilot engagement, usually fairly close to 1000' AGL.

As a sidenote, 757/767 aircraft can be manually flow under the following limitations:

TAKEOFF AND LANDING

Crosswind  29 Knots
Tailwind   10 Knots

There is no Headwind limitation when flown manually.
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