aces

[Nashwan]

The bombing of Dresden is questionable, with hindsight. At the time it was a strategic rail junction, and the descision to bomb it was taken. If Mustangs strafed the refugees that is a different matter, but there is considerable doubt as to wether that ever happened.
Hamburg was heavily damaged. Albert Speer said at the time that another 6 raids like that and German war production would totaly collapse. As it was, Production in Hamburg 6 months later was running at 80% of pre raid levels. It took more than a year for it to recover totaly. More than 600 factories were destroyed or badly damaged. 40,000 civilians died. Most of them didn't deserve to die, but that is an average of 2 days of casualties during the war. In other words, if the raid shortened the war by 2 days there was a net saving of lives. Do you think several months lost industrial production from Hamburg, one of Germay's main cities, shortened the war by 2 days? I do.

[Pongo]

Quite a thread
This is interesting
From torque.
"
How many of those Ruskie planes were vintage WW1 I?.Not until BOB did the AXIS come up against equal AC and pilots oh and we know how that story ended.Aside from the 5-1 odds.
I luv viewing those clips of 109's bouncing biplanes musta been tuff.
"
This is a silly statment.Is your contention that the French airforce was made up of biplanes? Or the BEF?
Torques remedial reading will be
"Brute Force- How the allies won WWII"
By John Ellis.

Another interesting one
Humble
"2) German pilots had tactical advantage due to circumstance most of the time (BoB only real exception)...this allowed them to control terms of engagement till early 45 when US "roaming escort" tactics began to tell."
The German Armed forces went through every phase of war over most of the terrain of the european sub continent. How can pushing one way be to the tactical advantage of the Germans and being pushed the other way also be to their tactical advantage...It should be noted that in almost all cases the Germans were at a signifigant numerical inferiority even on the offence.

Ram...Buddy
"And yes I am quite sure that Galland, Guderian, etc knew about slavery used in factories. But I am quite sure that they had no idea of what was going on in concentration and extermination camps, nor the jew holocaust."

Ram I bring this up only because I feel this statment really represents a core belief in your respect for these men. You know that I too am a LW fan. And many of your statements I can sympathise with. But you have to know what kind of men we are dealing with.

Remedial reading for RAM is
"Hitlers Willing executioners- Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust"
Daniel Jonah Goldhagen

This will not totaly change your mind about the martial accomplishments of the German military. But it might give you some insight into how much of complacency with evil was needed to create the WW2 we are talking about.

As funked has pointed out to me. We all keep learning. Discussing how WE feel WW2 went down in as polite way as posible will help keep the sacrifice we all honor so alive in our minds.
<S>

[JENG]

You are very right Pongo... to talk about it is to remember it.

I also read "Hitlers Willing executioners" and gave me at least some understanding about what happened. The known 'wier haben es nicht gewüst'(we didn't know) reply gets a total different meaning. What gets me tho is the fact that it indeed takes a very strong will to open your eyes. I just read a good book "Het Verzet" (The underground) that deals with the underground movement in the low countries. Those movements were very very small until 1943. After all Germany had won the war (that was what the believe was) and it takes a very strong mind to react instead of going with the flow and living your life. So I'm of the believe that most knew what was going on, civilians and soldiers.

I believe what stands out is why the war was fought. If you take WW1 it's not so clear who were the 'good' and who the 'bad'. Nationalism and imperialism reigned and both sides were out for a 'quick fight'. In WW2 it's a bit more clear, at least between the western Allies and the axis forces (if you consider the goelag and the athrocities that Stalin's regime commited it's maybe a different matter). Both sides commited crimes to a certain extend but that's war, the  Western Allies didn't start a war of conquest and neither did they massacre millions of people in a clinical way.

I admire the german aces, but when I read a book about them the above thought is always in my mind. I don't believe the 'I fought for the Fatherland' comment... specialy not when we are talking about highly decorated and reveared aces. They became public figures and served the propaganda campaign probably more then the fighters they shot down. Ok ok not hanz rudel... nobody can beat sinking a battleship  

Bee

PS: reading "Citizen Soldiers" by Stephen Ambrose, if you see it pick it up, you won't regret it. (Western Campaign from 7th June 1944-7th may 1945 from a pov of the GI's and german soldiers).
 

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 05-29-2000).]

[fats]

--- Torque in one message: ---
Heh guess the Finns were the good guys for awhile
--- end ---

And that is not even funny.


--- Torque in another message: ---
History shows Stalin was more of a world tyrant than Hitler was.
--- end ---

Yet it seems ok to you that your country supported the soviets.


//fats