Author Topic: Well guys...  (Read 1145 times)

Offline Sikboy

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Well guys...
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2002, 07:33:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval


Well, you'll probably make your first million before him though...

:D


Lol, thanks Curval, That will certainly help me sleep tonight :)

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Offline Hortlund

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Well guys...
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2002, 08:12:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta

Hortlund: congrats bud! There are some wrecks in Sweden you're not allowed to dive on. If I get taken diving one of 'um, I hope I get you as a judge :D.

I'll tell you everything about the difference between the A5 and A8 :D


Funny you should mention that. Before I got accepted at this court, I worked for a friend of mine who has his own company.

Let me know if you have heard about this one. In 97 a couple of Swedish divers discovered a wreck in Finnish territorial waters. It was the wreck of the "Jönköping". She was sunk in 1916 by a German submarine, and she was carrying a cargo of Champagne bottles. The swedes managed to salvage the cargo, and started selling off the champaign. Have you heard of that story?

Well, that was my friend and his company. And I got involved in the civil cases against some finnish amazinhunk who claimed he owned the cargo (on the grounds that his great grandfather had ordered two barrels of wine that also were aboard that ship. For some reason I have yet to fully understand, he claimed that this made him the sole owner of all cargo on that ship).

We also found a B17 bomber off the Island of Öland. Have you heard about that one? I have some gorgeous pictures of that one both on sidescanner and with camera. I have an old 12.7 mm standing in the bookshelf back home too from that aircraft. (There were no loss of life when the B17 ditched, in case someone got agitated)

[edit] name of the bomber was "Clay pidgeon" in case anyone is interested.

If there is anything you want to know about salvage law or what the legal aspects are of shipwrecks, let me know.

We went out in 2000 and found another wreck, this time a steamer named "Kyros" which was sunk by another German submarine in 1917. Kyros had a cargo of (amongst other things) 1000 bottles of cognac.

Man that was the perfect job... Off seasons I'd do all the paperwork and all legal stuff. In the summers I'd be on the ocean aboard our vessel operating the side scanner (could bore you to tears, sit and stare at the bottom for 8 hours, then sleep 8 hours).

Now Im sitting here at this desk, and my friend will be going to Indonesia in April to look for a Dutch east-india company ship loaded with china.  

Thats what marriage will do to you ;)

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2002, 08:42:45 AM »
Hey Hortlund,

Was that the one where they had to design a makeshift cover to keep the champagn corks from popping as the pressure changed on assent? That was pretty cool. And were there also Casks of that were also recovered, but turned out to be ruined?

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Offline straffo

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« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2002, 08:51:44 AM »
Quote
Let me know if you have heard about this one. In 97 a couple of Swedish divers discovered a wreck in Finnish territorial waters. It was the wreck of the "Jönköping". She was sunk in 1916 by a German submarine, and she was carrying a cargo of Champagne bottles. The swedes managed to salvage the cargo, and started selling off the champaign. Have you heard of that story?


How do the international law handle that ?
My guess is that the owner is the country on wich territory is the wreck ... that it ? or is it the person who discover the wreck ?

I'm pretty sure that if you dive on the wreck in pearl harbor and start to sell item you will be in trouble soon ... were is the difference ?

it's not a post intended to flame but more a candid question.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2002, 09:12:58 AM by straffo »

Offline Hortlund

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Well guys...
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2002, 09:03:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
Hey Hortlund,

Was that the one where they had to design a makeshift cover to keep the champagn corks from popping as the pressure changed on assent? That was pretty cool. And were there also Casks of that were also recovered, but turned out to be ruined?

-Sikboy


Yeah, thats the one. We had to make some makeshift rubber condome-like thingy we pulled over the corks, and then heated to make it stick. We still have problems with lekage though approx 1 000 bottles left).

The champagne tastes really cool though. Personally Ive never liked that stuff, but this one is special. Tastes sweet, kinda like raspberry. And when you open a bottle, and know that the air inside that bottle is from before 1916..its awesome.

There were 17 barrels of cognac aboard the ship too. But it was ruined. Turns out that if you have a oak barrel, put alcohol in it, and put the entire thing in water for 80+ years a complicated chemical process starts where the alcohol creeps through the wood. Basically what was in those barrels was a gooey dark brown mess that smelled like toejame.

My friend is writing a book about the experience and it will be something you guys should really read. Lots of things never made it to the public eye. Let me give you an example.

That finnish guy who took us to court. Well, he hired some really scary russian types to do some salvaging of his own (in the end they managed to steal something like 150 bottles). One night when our ship was at the wrecksite (I was not there) another ship appeared. A couple of hours later a small boat was discovered near our ship, and 3 guys were in the process of cutting our anchor cables (something that would have forced our ship to rtb <-hehe). This was before the cargo had been salvaged and we thought the cognac barrels were worth something, the estimated value of the cargo back then was something like $110 million. Anyway, our crew spotted them and a small naval battle started, the bad guys retreated though, but spent the next 2 days 100 m from our ship.

This all ended with our company hiring some Finnish Hells Angels as security guards. We figured that was the best way to beef security. It worked too. :)

Offline Dawvgrid

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« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2002, 09:20:36 AM »
Hey Hortlund
Have you dived on the BONITA down at Gotland.
It`s a great wreck,and  not that deep.
Think the cause of the wreckage was a collision in a heavy fog.
You now the term "a Donald Duck wreck",the kind you see in the DD-cartoons,,,,,,,,a complete ship ,,,just bottomized;)

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2002, 09:30:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo


How do the international law handle that ?
[/b]
It doesnt. Finnish law applies.

If you are in international waters on the other hand, other rules apply. But it is a very complicated situation. "Who owns the wreck". Well, first you have the original owners, they want in. Then you have the insurance company who once paid the original owners when the wreck occured, they want in too. To furthermore complicate things, you have to realize that the ship and the cargo most often are owned by different organizations or persons. Add another owner and another insurance company (it is very rare that the same insurance company insures both the ship and the cargo).

Lets complicate things a bit more. Here is an example that is not too far from a situation I was involved in (cant give any details since the ship is still down there with its cargo).

Say Person A in the US buys alot of valuable stuff, lets call it diamonds, from Person B in Holland. Person B hires skipper C to deliver the diamonds to person A. Person B is also a smart guy, and he insures his diamonds with insurance company D. Skipper C has his ship insured at insurance company E.

SkipperC takes his ship out, but alas, a great storm hits, and the ship sinks with the diamonds (everyone in the crew survives though...lets make this a sunshine story). It is impossible to salvage the cargo from the ship because it sunk where it is very deep. Insurance company E pays skipper C for the boat. Insurance company D pays person B for the diamonds.

80 years pass.

Along comes diver F.

Now new technology has made it possible to dive down to skipper C's old ship.

Diver F locates the wreck of the vessel using a sidescanner. It is located in international waters, and it is even outside any economic zone any country claims.

Diver F notes the position of the wreck on his maps and return home to try to raise money for the salvage.

Along comes Diver G. Diver G has also decided to go after the wreck, and he also finds it. Diver G also manages to lower a robot and salvage the ships bell before bad weather stops his salvage operation.

NOW, diver F realizes that diver G is also looking for skipper C's wreck. Diver F takes diver G to court to prevent him from salvaging anything. Diver F claims that he has the rights to the ship and the cargo, because he found it first. To prove this he can present sidescanner images of the wreck.

Diver G shrugs and says "so what? I was the one who salvaged something from the wreck first, that means I am the one who has the wreck in my posession", he says and shows up the bell from the ship.

Enter Person A:s grandson (lets call him AA) who claims that divers F and G can do whatever they want with the ship, because he owns the cargo.  AA shows everyone an old contract declaring that A (or his relatives) are the owners of the diamonds as soon as the skipper C's ship leaves port in Amsterdam.

Not so fast says insurance company D. WE own these diamonds because we once paid damages to persopn B when the ship was sunk. The right of ownership thus egressed to us.

Nooo says skipper Cs grandson (lets call him CC). I Own the diamonds because they are located on MY ship, and you cant just get access to that how you want. Sure you can salvage your diamonds, but you'll have to pay me lots of money before I let you TOUCH my ship.

YOUR SHIP? says insurance company E. WE paid your grandfather C reparations for that ship, thus the right of ownership has passed down to us.

Divers F and G starts to panic. WAIT they shout. You have no right to claim ownership to either the ship or the diamonds, because you have ABANDONED them. For all these 80 years, you have done NOTHING to try and salvage the ship. You havent even tried to find the ship. And BESIDES who says that The law in the US or HOLLAND should be applicable in this case? After all the ship is in international waters. Diver F:s diving vessel is registred in SOMALIA, and there the law clearly states that any person finding anything becomes the sole owner of that object.

You, as judge, suddenly feed the need for a large cold beer as everyone turns to you for a desicion...who owns the diamonds?

etc etc, I could actually throw in some more twists here, but this should giuve you an idea on how easy the legal aspects of this is.

(there is lots of money in this business, and its really fun too. If I decide against the career as proscecutor, this is prolly what Ill do instead)

:)

Offline hazed-

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Well guys...
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2002, 09:34:59 AM »
Man, steve that diving on the b17 wreck must have been fantastic.

Congrats on your first 'judge' sitting :)

and youre in my squad!! woooohooo free legal advice on how to go about killing enemies of the Reich!!! :D


stsanta how much do you dive on wrecks then? and how experienced would anyone need to be ?

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2002, 09:44:44 AM »
Wow, that's very cool. I saw a show about this on the Discovery channel last year. I was just telling my wife about it (don't remember why it came up). Very cool to meet one of those dudes. Small world and all that lol

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Offline straffo

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« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2002, 09:47:57 AM »
As Judge (J) I'm complelty lost (L) and if the cargo as any value I'll take all and run to the bermuda (B fek ... letter already allocated :) ) so I run  to any c(O)untry withou(T) any (E)xtradition la(W) ;)


t(H)at's (I)t ?

Offline Dawvgrid

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« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2002, 09:48:17 AM »
You have to be pretty experienced(imo),cause the most wrecks are in deep waters.
You can learn to dive fast,but the experience is essential.
And then you have to know diving in Scandinavia,is a dark and cold experience

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2002, 10:00:27 AM »
I have nver diven on anything deeper than 30m. I leave that for the pros. The Jönköping was 66m below the waves, and we had to hire a Danish company to do the "real" salvaging. The divers used "trimex" equipment in case you were wondering.

First we tried to salvage the bottles ourself, but we only got like 20-40 per day. And forget about the cognac barrels. So we decided to bring in this Danish company, to lift the wreck to the surface, and then empty it there.

It turned out the barrels were ruined, teh danes were scoundrels, and we would have been better off just sticking with those 20-40 bottles per day. But I guess its a lesson for the next wreck.

Some inside info:
The company is about to go bankrupt (not my friends company, but the company we set up to handle the champagne)

The most expensive bottle sold went for $3 250.

We have approx 1 000 bottles left and no buyers.

Total sales incomes from the champagne is about $1 millon.

One week after salvaging the ship, a japanese businessman offered to buy the entire cargo for $ 5 million but we declined.

Thats how far greed will take you :)