Author Topic: If it ain't Boeing...  (Read 400 times)

Offline funkedup

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If it ain't Boeing...
« on: March 07, 2002, 06:33:30 PM »

Offline Toad

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If it ain't Boeing...
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2002, 06:53:09 PM »
This is the part we've been discussing in the cockpit:

"Further, the Board is not aware of any prior events in which rudder movements have resulted in separation of a vertical stabilizer or rudder."

NTSB has been around a LONG time in one form or another. This is the FIRST vert stab/rudder they know of that has snapped off.

Now collectively a whole lot of airplanes have been flown through some amazing flight conditions like turbulence, overspeeds, g-loads all at once and separately without having the vert stab/rudder snap off. Seems like there'd have been at least a bent one or something you know?

I like Boeings. Fortunately, I'll be able to ensure that my entire remaining career is spent in a Boeing cockpit. :)
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Offline funkedup

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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2002, 07:02:07 PM »
Yeah that line got me too.  If I'm reading that letter correctly, Airbus designed a plane so that if you stomp on the rudder under certain conditions, the vertical stabilizer falls off.  It doesn't appear to be a fatigue or maintenance issue.  It appears that they actually didn't stress the structure for that condition, nor did they limit control authority to prevent failure.

Now Boeings did have engines falling off, but I'm pretty sure they didn't design it that way.  And you can survive losing an engine.  I don't recall anybody ever landing a plane minus the vertical stab.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2002, 07:08:23 PM by funkedup »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2002, 07:20:30 PM »
Actually Funked, they notified us all that NONE of the transport aircraft are certified for the stop-to-stop rudder reversal. We've been warned that it's possible to snap the fin off of anything if you do one or more stop-to-stop reversals.

We all just think it's kinda funny that in the 50 odd years of swept wing jets with powered rudders it hasn't happened before if that is truly the case.

That's an awful lot of flight hours, an awful lot of unusual flight conditions, unusual pilot techniques ;) but not other recorded failures.

All those old low-tech aluminum vert stabs/rudders stayed on. I don't think I've even heard of separation in the 737 "hard-over" crashes.

I could also tell you the story about a functional check flight on a 727 in the wee hours where part of the check is to turn off the yaw dampers at altitude and put it in a dutch roll with a sharp rudder input. The "Skipper" had us going in excess of 60 degrees of bank on the dutch roll swings and then slapped on a yaw damper right at max bank. It popped right to wings level instantly.

The mechanic watching the FCF made the comment "I'm amazed the T-tail stayed on!"  The F/O said "Jeez, please don't do that again!" The S/O said "I don't think that's too good for the tail!"

So the Skipper did it again.... just to show us what wimps we were.this time around 80 degrees of bank on the swings. T-tail stayed on. The Skipper left our employment shortly thereafter.

I like Boeings.  :)  Especially 727's because they are built like anvils.
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Offline moose

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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2002, 05:56:16 AM »
i landed a 109 once minus the vertical stab

just so happened it fell off when i rammed a c47

was able to put her down real nice
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Offline funkedup

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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2002, 03:40:16 PM »
Quote
Actually Funked, they notified us all that NONE of the transport aircraft are certified for the stop-to-stop rudder reversal. We've been warned that it's possible to snap the fin off of anything if you do one or more stop-to-stop reversals.


Oh I agree, it's clear that they aren't certified for that.  However, some airframers treat the cert requirements as sufficient engineering requirements, and some airframers treat cert requirements as minimum engineering requirements.  I think your 727 anectdote makes this quite clear.  Just because it's not in the cert requirements doesn't mean it won't happen, so you had better design for the worst case.

I'm not a pilot, I don't work with 727s, but I tell you one thing:  I sure wish they had used the 727 rudder actuation system on the 737!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2002, 03:43:41 PM by funkedup »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2002, 04:57:29 PM »
I think the 727 was designed by the Department of Redundancy Department at Boeing.  :)

There was a backup to the backup to the backup on just about everything.

727 Rudder? Not one, but TWO!! Upper and lower, powered by separate hydraulic systems. Gotta love those guys.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2002, 05:02:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I think the 727 was designed by the Department of Redundancy Department at Boeing.  :)

There was a backup to the backup to the backup on just about everything.

727 Rudder? Not one, but TWO!! Upper and lower, powered by separate hydraulic systems. Gotta love those guys.
I do believe the correct name for that division was the "Department of Rendundancy Rendundancy Department."

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Offline indian

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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2002, 12:24:27 AM »
Toad newer planes are triple redundant! Seperate hydraulics for each. Airbus is dangerous even on the ground they have a plug fit door that closes from the outside of the airplane (swings in) and then locks, it can be opened while cabin is pressurized. Other planes the door swing into the cabing alittle then seals the door cant be opened while under pressure at all.

Offline skernsk

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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2002, 09:15:34 AM »
When do you think the aircraft builders are ging to equip everyone with the ACES II ejection seat?

Personally I would rather land via silk canopy than have some guy at the contols of an airplane that might lose its tail.


As for the Boeing vs Airbus argument.

 - i have no preference as they both fall out of the sky and people die.

- 737 has gremlins in the tail as proven by numerous crashes.  Airbus has gremlins in the tail, how bad is unknown.  I'm sure the authorities (whoever they are) will wait for more to fall out of the sky befroe making a recall etc.

I think as the airliners get larger and faster we are going to see some serious "incidents" of Titanic proportions.  Some pilot error and some due to manufacturers.  But it always seems the pilot takes the brunt of it.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2002, 09:59:53 AM »
Indian, which of the new ones has TWO actual and separate rudders? Lots have 3 hydraulic actuators from three different sources but they all move the same single surface.

Skernsks, don't forget the far higher than usual incidences of Airbus aircraft impacting short of the runway when flying an ILS approach. They never really explained those yet either. It's not just structural failure.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline indian

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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2002, 06:54:44 PM »
Sorry didnt read the seperate rudder part just hydraulic part.