Author Topic: Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....  (Read 3194 times)

Offline Don

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2002, 04:45:56 PM »
>>Would love to discuss this topic on vehicle damage, but first I wan't to know what you wish us to accomplish. <<

HT:
What I'd like you and your staff to do is take a look at the damage modeling, particularly on the Ostie and perhaps on the M-16. I only know what I experience in the arena. I'm not gonna post up lines of data on ammo performance; I don't think that is relevant in a virtual reality game/sim.
I have attempted on numerous occasions to kill FPz and M16s with bombs; mg fire (.50 cal & 20 mm) and rockets; they just wont die or suffer the damage they ought to. Sometimes my aim is bad, and I can see it as I pass over; the craters don't lie but,
I will make passes on an ostie and purposely fire 8 rockets dead on, only to look back and see the ostie drive thru with craters all around it w/o a scratch. And the same with the M16 although, a proximity will usually kill it.
They seem to be way too tough for the nature of their armor as I compare my experiences with killing Panzers. I have had success strafing panzers with either .50 cal or 20mm guns; that is odd to me.
So for me, all I would want is a close look at the modeling and perhaps a brief test. If my experiences (and those of others) are not founded in fact, then I will accept it. Until that time, I'm thinking that something is porked.

Offline Don

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2002, 05:04:22 PM »
>>just make MG's completely ineffective against armor (but not the guy standing in the Osty turret) <<


And then I want, and then I want, and then I want ;)
And it took 4 passes to get destroyed by 6 fifties? And you don't think several hundred rounds; possibly a thousand rounds, should have damaged your Ostie? Sheesh.

Offline SKurj

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2002, 11:07:11 PM »
+) u didn't get it Don

Anyways!!  make the osty turret soft against .50's but the rest of the vehicle invulnerable to them.

2 passes in a jug and any pz or flak is dead bang boom (not just disabled)
I know cuz i've done it several times the last few days


SKurj

Offline Virage

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #123 on: April 01, 2002, 11:36:06 PM »
"A .50 caliber API round is easily capable of penetrating armor up to at least 19mm of face hardened plate ... at 100 meters."

http://www.rovingguns.com/lunatic/wwII_gun_analysis/

A fantastic article that may turn me into a 50 cal. convert in regards to aircraft damage.  It does not address the 50 cal. vs. gv armor issue however,  but there is plenty to chew on.

Taking this penetration data at face value, how would the armor of the Panzer IV and Ostwind compare?  At what ranges would the 50. cal penetrate their armor?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2002, 11:38:59 PM by Virage »
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Offline pbirmingham

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #124 on: April 02, 2002, 02:52:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seeker
Good link Illo; but it, and it's response, only illustrate further what has already been discussed on these boards:

Allied air superiority post D-day actually resulted in relativly mínor physical destructiobn of Axis resources.
 


Ya know, Seeker, from my reading of it, I gather this:

Air attacks killed anywhere from one-third to one-half as many tanks as did armor-piercing shot from anti-tank artillery and other tanks.

Doesn't sound so shabby when you put it that way, does it?  Add to that the fact that, unlike with ATGs and other tanks, there's not (really) a damn thing you can do about the air attack, and it must be pretty demoralizing.

Offline Seeker

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #125 on: April 02, 2002, 07:16:51 AM »
"Ya know, Seeker, from my reading of it, I gather this:

Air attacks killed anywhere from one-third to one-half as many tanks as did armor-piercing shot from anti-tank artillery and other tanks. "

I didn't know that, to be honest, but you make a good point.

My point was that despite what appears to surprisingly low amounts of actual destroyed hardware on the field, all those involved at the time, from the highest Axis commanders to the lowest Allied grunt hunkered down and watching; all agree on the absolutly paralyzing effect of unopposed airpower on armour movement.

After all, it seems both sides had to re-invent the wheel numerous times. Just as the Allieds failed to learn the buff lesson from the Battle of Brittain, and had to learn it all for them selves, so the Axis seemed to forget the effectiveness of the Blitzkrieg they themselves invented, and seemed to have no plans, doctrines or tactics to combat Blitzkrieg turned against them. Funk once posted a late war Spit pilot's log book, and I was very surprised to see that over 90 % of sorties were Jabo, not a role one immeaditaly associates with the Spit.

Again, I'd love to see some Eastern Front analysis for balance, as most of the discussions on this board are post D-day, but there's valuble comparisons to be made in both the Italian and North African campaigns too. I'm afraid to say I know absolutly nothing of the Pacific theatre's use of armour either.

What was the Finnish experience against Soviet armour?

Offline illo

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #126 on: April 02, 2002, 08:11:20 AM »
Finnish didn't have anything in air to kill tanks with except ju-88s. Ju-88s were mainly used as divebombers. I think 4x500kg bombs would take out soviet tanks. Situation changed when KG Kuhlmey arrived in with Stukas and Fw190s of SG2 and II/JG54 finland at summer 1944.

Bombs were only thing that could damage medium/heavy soviet tanks.

Quote
"A .50 caliber API round is easily capable of penetrating armor up to at least 19mm of face hardened plate ... at 100 meters."

http://www.rovingguns.com/lunatic/wwII_gun_analysis/

A fantastic article that may turn me into a 50 cal. convert in regards to aircraft damage. It does not address the 50 cal. vs. gv armor issue however, but there is plenty to chew on.

Taking this penetration data at face value, how would the armor of the Panzer IV and Ostwind compare? At what ranges would the 50. cal penetrate their armor?

With that data any of side rear and front plates(of PzKpfw IVh) can't be penetrateted from any distance. Top turret(15mm) and top deck(12mm) can be penetrated if shot from high angle dive(over 60dgr) at less than 250-300m.

Offline Don

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #127 on: April 02, 2002, 10:50:04 AM »
>>2 passes in a jug and any pz or flak is dead bang boom (not just disabled)
I know cuz i've done it several times the last few days <<


Skurj:
My not getting it is exactly my point.
;)
For me there has been way too much inconsistent performance where strafing runs and attacks with other ord against Osties are concerned.
But as I read Hortlund's post about WW2 and the battle or Mortain, I get the impression that attacks against heavily armored tanks was a bit if a crapshoot. Okay, I can accept that, and it helps me rest easier. But, the Ostie's hardness has been near impossible for me to understand. I think there should be not much difference between a Jug shooting a thousand rounds at an Ostie in the MA, and a P-51 shooting a thousand at the same target.
Is there something wrong or porked? I don't know. My point is, I'm thinking there is. So, I will be looking closely at it over the next few weeks to get some actual info to support my suspicions.

Offline mauser

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #128 on: April 02, 2002, 12:04:29 PM »
My recent experience:

Saw gv's coming into a19's city on the "uterus" map.  Upped a pz to go hunting and got a glimpse of an m3/m16 speeding off towards the city.  When I finally got there, I saw three gv's... 2 m3/m16 and 1 m8 that was shelling the city.  I ranged in (about 4 shots) and killed the first m3/m16 that I saw, the tail end charlie.  Then I ranged in and damaged the m8 (also about 4 shots).  It was about 1400-1600 yds away.  The last m3/m16 was a little to the left and slightly further down range compared to the m8.  I saw tracers come in my direction from the m3/m16 so I figured I'd better tend to it since the m8 was already smoking.  I think I got one shot off that was a bit short before I was sent back to the tower.  It was the m16/m3 that killed me and not the m8 because I have not been killed by m8's during tour 26 (this incident occured Saturday 3/30).  So I was killed by possibly 4 .50's at a little over 1500 yds on my front plate, front turret, or mantlet (I usually like to face the front to my targets by habit).  I really wish I had filmed this, but was feeling confident I could kill all three from out of their effective range.  Plus the films cannot show the gunner view so you have to take my word that I can estimate range ok.  Was a bit miffed that this still happens, but I don't get frustrated enough to not play.  

mauser

Offline Sarge1

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Tanks and 50's
« Reply #129 on: April 14, 2002, 10:50:11 AM »
seen on the history channel about the P47 and the 8 50's and the P51d... seen both on film killing german tanks .. they used the undercarriage as it is the weakest spot on the tank.. see them shouot ground and bullets bounced off and up into tank causiong it to be stopped.. so 50's do kill german tanks.. even the panzer, and the tiger....

Offline ccvi

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Re: Tanks and 50's
« Reply #130 on: April 14, 2002, 11:51:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sarge1
see them shouot ground and bullets bounced off and up into tank causiong it to be stopped.. so 50's do kill german tanks.. even the panzer, and the tiger....


An aircraft "stopped" may be killed, because it's falling from the sky. A tank stopped is just a tank stopped - not a tank killed.

Offline thrila

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #131 on: April 14, 2002, 04:57:32 PM »
Atleast you can't flip tanks with your gear like you could in ww2ol.:D
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Something like it's elder brother-
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Offline Urchin

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Re: Tanks and 50's
« Reply #132 on: April 14, 2002, 06:01:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sarge1
seen on the history channel about the P47 and the 8 50's and the P51d... seen both on film killing german tanks .. they used the undercarriage as it is the weakest spot on the tank.. see them shouot ground and bullets bounced off and up into tank causiong it to be stopped.. so 50's do kill german tanks.. even the panzer, and the tiger....


Sarge, can you read?  Did you bother to?  The same toejam you just posted was ALREADY posted at least twice in this thread.  Exactly the same thing "Well, I saw on History Channel that P-47s shot the road and it bounced up into the bottom of the tank and killed it".  

Well, I saw on Private Ryan that the guy blew up a tank with 4 shots from a pistol (my DVD player wouldn't play the end of the movie".  I demand that bailed pilots be given Colt .45s so we can go tank hunting if we get shot down while near an enemy base.

And yes, I just lied.  I saw the damn movie (the whole thing).. I just wanted to see if I could post something more ludicrus than him.  

The CLAIM that .50 caliber MG fire could kill a tank after being bounced off a roadway has been made and shown to be false (with some possible if very very very very very very very very very unlikely exceptions).  

And yes, I'd dearly love to see it fixed, because it IS broken.

Offline MANDOBLE

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Re: Tanks and 50's
« Reply #133 on: April 15, 2002, 08:32:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sarge1
bounced off and up into tank causiong it to be stopped..


I imagine the panzer commander saying to his driver:
Stop, I heard some extrange noise below the tank...

And the P47 pilot:
Hurra!!! panzer stopped and destroyed!!!

Offline hitech

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Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #134 on: April 15, 2002, 11:41:49 AM »
Btw gents here is the 50cal balistic info.




An axample of reading this chart. at 400 yards with a 20 deg shot on the armor, the 50cal will penitrate .6 inches.

Will post armor thickness for the panzer on the top and back portions soon as pyro gets back from lunch