Expert pilots "quitting" because of mixed arena EM?

[Mr. Bean]

Lets keep this sim realistic as much as possible and BAN ez mode from it for all times. Those who want EZ mode can start flying Fighter Ace or something

Bean

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Johan "MrBean" Dorssers

[This message has been edited by Mr. Bean (edited 05-30-2000).]

[Vermillion]

I can remember the frustration of learning a "real mode" or "full realism" flight model, and its even the reason I canceled my first Warbirds account, waaaaayyyyy back when. So I remember what the new guy felt.

But I also know as an "old stick" that I fly here to test my skills against other pilots. Thats the main reason for being here. Its the fun of even and fair competition.

So I do believe that an EZMode should be available to help out the new guys, who are struggling with the entire concept and learning curve of the game.

BUT an unlimited EZMode that pilots can fly forever, and use to their advantages, against pilots flying in a more difficult flight model is just as bad. Its almost like a sanctioned cheat. Easymo could do things in a Ki-84 in easy mode, that I could never have done in full mode.

The Two arena's concept that AW uses is as bad idea IMO. This puts a permanent split between the RelaxedRealism and FullRealism  pilots, and most pilots will never make the step up to the "real or full" level.

Personally, the only way I can see that it can be done even halfway fair, is to have a mixed arena limited available time for EZmode. Where once the pilot flies X hours, or gets X kills, they graduate up to the real thing.

Otherwise we're just creating more future problems than we're solving.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Westy]

 I could only echo what Vermillion said. A permanent mix of physics or seperate entities do not appear to work - at least from the point of view of this full realism pilot who wants a growing full realism community.

 -Westy

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by Creamo:
And after a set amount of time in "Easy mode" the newbies kill X amount of planes, then get "promoted" to a flight model that they stall into the terrian time after time, or get stall fighted outta Energy into oblivion?

Won't they quit within 10 days because the "rush" and "reward" is replaced by utter and complete frustration of failure?

Where does this promoting of not learning anything by getting used to a "point and shoot" flight model solve anything?

Graduated training. The person is learning shooting,bombing, SA, some strat, the radio, lots of other things while they dont have to learn about trim or whatever. It is easy to forget untily you do some training how much is required to play this game.
It is like the old instructions for Squad Leader vs the Advanced Squad Leader rules. The old rules were abit simpler but they taught you a little at a time as well, so you could gradally move up to the more complex concepts. The Advanced Squad Leader rules where not only more complex but you had to read and digest 70 pages of it befor you got started. While ASL was popular it never got the widespread support out of its hard core market that SL had.  

[hblair]

I flew in that same ACA arena as easymo did for about the same period of time. Not because I enjoyed easymode, but because the HA just cost more money than I could reasonably spend.

Vermillion, when you say easymo could do things in a KI84 in easymode that you couldn't do in FR what specific moves are you talking about? Don't get me wrong, easymo was one deadly mug in WB's in the ACA and in Full Realism. You don't think when you ran into him in the pay arena's he was really using easymode do you? I've talked to mo on RW on several occasions and I know he despised easymode, but he was in the same boat I was.

Lets do a test, I'll download the latest version of WB's if those of you who think easymode gives you advantages, will use easymode in a coalt same planes duel with me.

I'll beat each and every one of ya.  

 The fight will be over after the merge when I zoom climb higher than you, ride the stall, and ease my guns down onto your walllowing six, then I will patiently follow you down as you try to lose me, but there's no way you can, because I can outturn you.  

Ahhh, the advantages of  easymode. NOT.  

[Vermillion]

Hblair, I just go by what he told me.

This was way back (about a year ago) when he brought up the "easy mode" issue on AGW, for the first time that I can remember it being brought up.

He explicitily told me one day when we were flying in a beta "main arena" that he was flying on easy mode in a Ki-84.

And no I'm not taking anything away from him or his flying, he's good.

In the other threads EasyMo and Badger both have stated repeatedly that there are advantages to flying in this mode, and I believe them.

As too flying H2H in Warbirds EZ versus Real, it won't prove a thing. I don't fly TnB planes, and never ever duel anyone. So I get killed by raw newbs when I fly like that. I am a blatant BnZ pilot, never engage "without an advantage" type, which I do pretty good at.

But I never, ever "duel" anyone   Cause I stink at it.

This is not a Knightly battle where honor and skill comes to play.... I am the assasin in the night that you never see  


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[easymo]

 HB. You are making an apples to oranges argument. Remember we are talking AH cannon. Not WB. I just took up a KI in WB off line game. Im a little rusty, but with a little, gentle, rudder work I can hang on the prop until the speed drops to 75 IAS. Now imagin just hanging there in front of me 7 or 800 yards out. Whith these guns you would die. BTW given time to practice. i can stay there even longer than that, and with a stable gun solution

[BBGunn]

Seems like an Easy mode arena would be re-creating the wheel as in WB.
Where's the creativity and imagination?  Out for beer pizza I guess.  A while back (11/2 years) I joined a cyber squad that required basic ACM's to get "points" for grade/rank.   There was no easy mode but the veteran squaddys provided a "calm" session every month so the new people could test their basic skills.  Somebody would act a drone for gunnery requirements for example.  Since AH has an easy take off mode already I don't see why it should be made any easier than that.  

[Citabria]

I too was condemned to easy mode of the ACA in WB whenever the HA was empty... I found the MA a waste of money.

however I found certain maneuvers could be done in ez mode that could not be done in real mode.
In an fw190 I could run for 50 miles flick rolling around in front of a trailing bandit at 3 feet above the ground with no worry of crashing. in RM the same maneuver would bring about a loss of control after too much of that flick nonsense.

High speed bounces in B&Z planes were much easier. there was no thought or care given to trimming the plane so it would be stable.

the only planes that suffered under ez mode was the T&B planes... they simply couldnt pull a full angle of attack the rm was capable of.

but for pure vertical B&z the ez mode reigned supreme.

I still cannot fathom why people payed 2 bucks an hour to be in ez mode when there was a free ACA. I always thought the WB RM was worth 2 bucks an hour but the EZ mode was a jail sentence.

It has advantages (READ: IT IS EASY! DUH) but its so damn unrealistic. It's just a pandora's box.

[hblair]

True, you could be going a gazillion miles per hour and yank the stick in easy mode with no real repercussions, but your plane in easymode isn't as fast as one being flown in Full Realism, (from what I've read trainers say anyways).

True, you guys make a point about trimming the planes, in easymode it ain't necessary.

But all in all, would you rather run into a 109k at 25,000 ft being flown by a guy in Full Realism, or easymode? I'd rather meet a guy who's flying easymode molasses.

I think when you talk about a plane 'hanging' on the prop in easymode, a plane in Full Realism would either still be climbing, or already nosed over, in other words the dude ain't just 'hanging' there. The top of an immelmann usually isn't a healthy place to hanging anyways.  

I don't know, I guess I just don't see any advantage to easymode that outweighs the disadvantages.

I never will forget being a new guy, I started in November of '98 in the ACA. Full Realism was an option at that time in that arena, was until February or March of '99.

There was a fella who flew there in the squad I was in at that time by the handle -zdom-  . He was the same guy who introduced me to RW way back then.

Anyways, he flew full realism, and tried to talk me into it. I had tried it a few times, and couldn't get used to it, the plane just wouldn't do what I wanted it to do. I thought I had gotten pretty good at dueling in easymode, (LOL) and thought I might be ready for -zdom-. He met me a few times coaltitude, I would do this nifty lil move called an Imellman, (hehe) and before I could tell what the hell was goin' on, he was on my arse, and I woke up in the tower shortly after that.  

He explained to me what had happened over roger wilco. His plane, flying in full realism mode had a larger performance threshold than my plane in easymode. While more challenging, his plane depended on him to tell it how far it would be pushed before it would spin, my FE wouldn't let my plane get but so close to the edge.

That was a rude awakening for me.  

If HTC decides to do the same type of thing  with easymode as they did in WB's, you won't hear me complain, although these ideas of a certain amount of time in easymode before you go to full realism sound interesting.
Maybe seperating the arena's would be better.

To sum it up, I don't believe WB's easymode has some kinda secret tricks that certain evil pilots use to outsnicker a smart pilot in full realism.

[Kieren]

HBlair-

I remember a few of our meetings in the ACA... usually in Zekes, and they were the twisty-turny type fights. Always a good time.

That said, I don't think your challenge about dueling EZ/FR will prove much. The part of EZ that is the advantage IMHO is the steadying effect it has on gunnery. I loved when the Corsair rotated into the arena, as it was a "go-fast-and-kill" fighter without comparison.

True, if an EZ flyer tries to turn, he is toast. The easy solution is don't turn.

Is EZ slower than FR? I never saw any proof of it.

All this matters little though. What is important is what HTC decides to do, and how they do it. I am not close-minded enough to think there is no way to mix FR and EZ. I do think HTC needs to exercise great care with the process. My preference would be for separate arenas, but I wouldn't cancel an account over the issue. I'm willing to give anything a fair chance. My opinion of course.  

[SnakeEyes]

Citabria... you can 'flick roll' in a 190 in Real Mode eternally also.  There ARE some things that can only be done in EZ mode, but that's not one of them.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Fishu]

Why everyone talking about arena with easy and normal FM? (cant say it too realistic yet)

I doubt that will ever happen...
Easy mode arenas will be different arenas.

[Lizard3]

This is a much saner thread. That said, If it needs to be, let it be. I like the idea of gradual reduction of EZ perks and I like the idea of a separate EZ Academy arena. I would volunteer an hour or 2 of my time each week to help train newbie's given a structure like that. It sounds like fun.

[Kats]

I think the real issue is how to make a easymode/real mode single arena work. Just because there were flaws in different simms in the past, doesn't mean the same mistakes have to be made again. (Whatever they may have been).