Author Topic: Why was the F15 developed?  (Read 303 times)

Offline fdiron

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 697
Why was the F15 developed?
« on: March 30, 2002, 10:55:12 PM »
A member from my squadron were talking about the F15.  I had heard on the old television show "Wings" that the F15 was designed to counter the Soviet Mig-25.  My squadmate said that the F15 was simply a replacement for the F4 and was not built to counter the much faster Mig-25.

It seems like I remember that the USAF had high performance requirements for the F15 due to faulty intelligence on the Mig25.  When a Mig25 pilot defected to Japan it was only then that the Western world was able to see that the Mig was not as good as previously thought.

Which one of us is right?

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2002, 11:11:39 PM »
I think it was the US response to that mig. Replacement for the F4? Hardly, I doubt something as extremely sophisticated wouldve been developed to replace the F4. IMO, the F16 was what replaced it. F15 was built as an air superiority fighter I think.

Offline streakeagle

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1026
      • Streak Eagle - Stephen's Website
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2002, 11:42:46 PM »
The specification that led to the F-15 was created before the MiG-25 scare. It was originally intended to be a 60,000 lb Mach 3 interceptor, but the "fighter mafia" got the weight trimmed down to 40,000 lbs. In the LBJ/McNamara years, getting money for an aircraft with only a single mission ("not a pound for air to ground") was almost impossible, so the MiG-25 was used as a justification for funding the F-15 program. The Mach 3 specification was eventually reduced to Mach 2.8 (which the original F-15 can supposedly do if only for a moment) to help cut costs and permit a large bubble canopy.

The MiG-25 blew the Phantom away in time to climb records and supposedly achieved Mach 3.2 (later information indicates that it was an unmanned drone being tracked on radar, not a MiG-25 or that it was a MiG-25 with an engine overspeed problem... the MiG-25 starts suffering thermal damage to its wings at Mach 3). The US experts assumed the Soviets achieved this speed and climb performance with high-bypass turbofans much like the ones used in the F-15 and F-111/F-14. In fact they had used an ingenius arrangement involving turbojets centered in large pipes that get bypassed by supersonic airflow to become ramjets. They also assumed the MiG-25 used titanium extensively like the SR-71, but it was only stainless steel and aluminum (hence the speed limit of Mach 2.8 to 3 regardless of engine power). Since turbofans are even more powerful at lower speeds and titanium construction would permit a lighter airframe weight and higher g-limits, they grossly overestimated the subsonic thrust to weight ratio and agility of the MiG-25.

The F-15 pushed the limits of Western technology at the time and could not even begin to match the intell estimates. Of course, announcing this to the public secured funding for the F-15. The 1976 defection of Victor Belenko occurred 3 years after the first F-15 flight and 1 year after the F-15 entered service. It lifted the veil of secrecy over the MiG-25 and left the F-14/F-15 fighters standing far above all others as the best interceptors in the world.

I have to say that it is a fact that the F-15 was being planned and developed 2 to 5 years before the existence of the MiG-25 was even publicly announced, so it was not a response to that aircraft Experience in Vietnam had more influence on the design changes than the MiG-25 threat: bubble canopy rather than top speed, internal gun, and maneuverabililty over speed.

[edit]
TAC, the F-4 was originally bought by the Navy for "Fleet Air Defense"-- a missile interceptor. The Air Force was never happy having been forced to buy the F-4 since their pride was hurt when a Navy multi-role aircraft with the weight penalties associated with carrier borne aircraft smoked all the the Air Force's single mission types (the F-4 climbed faster than an F-104, it was outright faster than anything else at altitude, and had better radar than the F-106). So the F-15 was meant to be a true Air Force design to replace the F-4 in the air-to-air roles, of course Vietnam taught them that a 60,000 lb Mach 3 fighter with no gun and no maneuverability was not a good replacement, so the specification was radically modified.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2002, 11:50:57 PM by streakeagle »
i5(4690K) MAXIMUS VII HERO(32 Gb RAM) GTX1080(8 Gb RAM) Win10 Home (64-bit)
OUR MISSION: PROTECT THE FORCE, GET THE PICTURES, ...AND KILL MIGS!

Offline LtHans

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2002, 12:57:00 AM »
And then came the budget problem of aquiring several hundred F-15s....namely the USAF can't afford that many.

So, instead they issued another directive and asked for a cheaper plane to supplement the Uber F-15.

F-16 vs F-17.  F-16 wins, though the F-17 Cobra becomes the F-18 Hornet for the Navy.

Offline LePaul

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7988
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2002, 01:30:12 AM »
...and the "lower cost" aircraft turn out to be incredibly expensive to maintain.  F-16s are big maintenance hogs (I'm told from Crew Cheifs) and F-18s are even worse.

Perfect airplanes?  Nope, they've all got their Pros and Cons, and of course that monster price tag.

I liked the F-20 for what its worth  :)  So did Yeager!

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2002, 03:08:37 AM »
But you have to love what the F-15 has become.  The Strike Eagle is truely an awe inspiring bird.

AKDejaVu

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2002, 09:09:44 AM »
...and of course when we got our "cheap, cheap, cheap!" F-16's we almost immediately began adding things like a much more capable and expensive radar. So they ended up being nearly as expensive asjust buying that many more F-15's.  :)

Those things had been left out of the design in order to meet the price requirement but we put back in to make the airplanes able to do what they needed to do.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Smut

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 195
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2002, 10:21:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
...and the "lower cost" aircraft turn out to be incredibly expensive to maintain.  F-16s are big maintenance hogs (I'm told from Crew Cheifs) and F-18s are even worse.

Perfect airplanes?  Nope, they've all got their Pros and Cons, and of course that monster price tag.

I liked the F-20 for what its worth  :)  So did Yeager!


I'm not sure where you got your information on the F/A-18 from, but it is very wrong. The F/A-18 is by far one of the easiest modern tactical aircraft to work on. The F-4, on the other hand, was a true pig to work on (although I've never personally turned a wrench on one). The F-14 is also pretty hard to work on (and I have many hours of first hand experience). In fact the poor maintainablity and low reliability of the Tomcat is one of the main reasons they will be withdrawn earlier than planned (i.e. before 2010).

I've never ran the numbers on the F-16 but I suspect it would be somewhat more maintainable than the F-15. It was born out of the lightwieght fighter program that also spawned the F/A-18, and high reliability and good maintainability were goals even then.

-Smut

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2002, 10:59:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
...and the "lower cost" aircraft turn out to be incredibly expensive to maintain.  F-16s are big maintenance hogs (I'm told from Crew Cheifs) and F-18s are even worse.
The only thing that would be "worse" about the F/A-18 is that it has two engines...

But to be honest, I bet those to planes are a dream compared to what most work(ed) on.  F-16's with clip-on panels and real computerized test equipment... one of the easier engines to remove... I never heard horrible stories from their techs.

I suppose if someone never worked on the aircraft the F-16 replaced... they may simply have nothing to compare them too.

No fighter is a dream to work on... only in comparison.
Quote
Perfect airplanes?  Nope, they've all got their Pros and Cons, and of course that monster price tag.
And they'll dance circles around virtually any plane that is cheaper.  The F-16 is quite simply the most versatile fighter jet in the world today.
Quote
I liked the F-20 for what its worth  :)  So did Yeager!
I always thought the F-20 looked the coolest. :cool:



AKDejaVu

Offline Dux

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7333
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2002, 11:47:07 AM »
Interesting side note: As the F-15 was designed to counter the MiG-25, the MiG-25 was designed to counter the XB-70 Valkyrie (which never made production after the crashes).
Rogue Squadron, CO
5th AF, FSO Squadron, Member

We all have a blind date with Destiny... and it looks like she's ordered the lobster.

Offline LtHans

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Why was the F15 developed?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2002, 09:11:20 PM »
I'm wondering how cheap the F-35 will be, since this is also one of it's main design goal....economy.  F-22s are expensive, something like 100 million each.  F-35s are supposed to be around 25 to 35 million.

With reduced threat of major wars I'm betting that the military in gerneral will go for smaller/cheaper weapons, war on terrorism or not.