Of Dweebs and Perks

[Grizzly]

So, why did you run into him?

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
----Was looking forward to a night of flying - grabbed my trusty F4U-1 and went hunting... low and behold I find a fight... Ive got alt and I dive in... straight down... N1k points his nose skyward, we ram... myself at about 400 IAS and him at about 75IAS... wonderful start.
----Now, spare me the "avoid" HO discussion here and hear me out... I have finally thought of a solution to the problem in the Main Arena.

The Problem:  Dweeb mentality = Fly around and seek out the destruction of enemy aircraft with no thought of survival.  To destroy the bad guys in red as aggressively as possible in a kamakazi style because who knows when my next chance will be.  Hell, it doesnt even matter if I die, Ill just re-up another N1k and kill more bad guys.

The Question:  Dweebs wasnt to fly perk planes, its one of the first questions most ask upon learning how to use the radio.

The Solution:  Award absolutely ZERO, thats right folks, ZERO perks unless the sortie is landed.  

The Reason:  This will effectively ELIMINATE 95% of the hot mearges, 95% of the suicidal ACM, 95% of the rams, and 95% of the whining.

The Result:  A "combat simulation" not a neverending suicidal furball.  Survival will be the paramount priority, killing enemy aircraft a close second.  More "realistic" aircraft behavoir, real world tactics actually working, and last but certainly not least, an appreciation for an earned kill.

Perhaps Im off my rocker here - thoughts?

[MadBirdCZ]

Originally posted by Grizzly
So, why did you run into him?

Maybe it seemed as a good idea at the moment?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MadBirdCZ
But then the tactics and thinking becomes even more important especially if the disadvantaged pilot is yourself. You need to employ the right tactics to even the chances or better to gain an advantage -> and get the kill (not killed)  

Flying effectively with a disadvantage is different than what Wilbus describes, which is always flying with some sort of advantage (be it numbers, energy, altitude, etc).  It's one thing to turn a disadvantageous situation into an advantageous one; another thing entirely to fly so conservatively as to never allow oneself at a relative disadvantage.

I fail to see how the latter in any way represents "realistic" combat flying.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[MadBirdCZ]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


to fly so conservatively as to never allow oneself at a relative disadvantage.


-- Todd/Leviathn

This would mean staying in Tower and watching the map... Everytime you climb into the cockpit you risk facing the disadvantage situation, arent you?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MadBirdCZ
This would mean staying in Tower and watching the map... Everytime you climb into the cockpit you risk facing the disadvantage situation, arent you?

In Aces High, unlike reality, it's possible to grab to enormous altitudes in a fast plane, run from even odds, fly (safely) into friendly ack for protection, use your own countrymen for bait while you cherry pick, etc etc.

Such tactics assure an advantage to conservative players willing to use them.  However, claiming that such tactics are historical is what bothers me, because very clearly they are not.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Translating this whine:

"A 300 mph closure rate seemed like a good idea at the time"

I can't even begin to count how many times I've seen someone with an obvious energy advantage point his nose at the enemy and then complain that the enemy attempted to do the same thing.

If you have a distinct advantage and fail to capitalize... its not because the other guy was a dweeb.

AKDejaVu

Ok... now I asked very nicely to be spared the "Avoid" discussion... my 'simple' reply to your 'simple' translation is 'simply' "Ever try turning a hog at 400IAS?"  Doesnt work too well. especially when the NME counters by turning into you constantly...  Now that 300 kts of closure you refer to - it was closer to 100 kts when I was d 2.0 behind him... he turned completely and faced me.  Regardless... couple trends I am noticing here that disturb me a little bit and some I am pleased with.

Now Im not going to mention any names but heres the score...

1.  Seems to me that most of you are missing the argument here.  
-A.  The argument is NOT "He rammed me."  (Read, "we rammed")
-B.  The argument is not "The N1k is an AH-64 with top side firing guns"

2.  A few of you however were good enough to respond to my IDEA as opposed to the example I cited which plays itself out every night.
-A.  The IDEA is not awarding perks for kills gained during a sortie which results in death.
-B.  The reason I have raised this IDEA is because I (read, individual) think the solution would work.
-C.  The reason I posted the IDEA is to see what you all thought of it.  IE 1. Is it a good idea?  2.  Would it work?  3.  Am I alone in my frustration?  (read, "Am I off my rocker?")

In conclusion, I believe a wrote a rather tame post and sure enough I get moronic responses from most (read again... sorry for you guys that can pick up on this without help... most, not all) people who bothered to read 1/2 of the thread.  For those of you that responded to the IDEA thank you - for the rest...

[Pollock]

Im saving my perkies for the P-47M or N HTC you listening?

[MadBirdCZ]

Well maybe you wont die by doing it that way Leviathan but you wont get many kills neither

You are right of course... AH is missing quite a lot of limitations which were , are and will be present in RL. But come on! Its just a game

[MadBirdCZ]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar

we rammed

BEEEP buzzer goes on! Collision system in AH does not work like that  Please spare us of begining the discussion about 'why the ramm is only 1 sided' it has beend discussed/explained by official sources so many times before that we don't want to bring this up again.

So you rammed him and he shot you (or vice versa) or you both shot yourselves or any combination but only 1 of you (if he really did) rammed the other guy.

The Reason: This will effectively ELIMINATE 95% of the hot mearges, 95% of the suicidal ACM, 95% of the rams, and 95% of the whining.

Unfortunately I have to disagree on this one... really... REAL dweebs are dweebs... they never change... thats the first thing you have to have in mind.

HO merges? Why not? well IMHO there is a slight difference between HO Merge and a HO. From my point of view HO is when 2 planes afe closing at high speed noses pointing at each other guns blazing and both hoping that they manage to blast the other guy away from the sky soon enough not to colide with him... but a HO merge is really something else....

Ramms - you cant eliminate ramms by not giving perks for mission. Ramming will happen...

Suicidal ACM - like what? Keep in mind that many players are new to the game and maybe they are new to flight simulations or flying in general. You just cant expect them that they will do every ACM by the book from the scratch.

Whining? - Im affraid it would encourage the whining actually.


But again I might be wrong

[qts]

The Solution: Award absolutely ZERO, thats right folks, ZERO perks unless the sortie is landed.

Absolutely disagree: it's too easy to be bounced while you're landing for a start, and you're going to discourage a lot of newbies.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MadBirdCZ
Well maybe you wont die by doing it that way Leviathan but you wont get many kills neither

[/B]

Actually, flying very conservatively is one way to obtain an incredibly high K/D ratio.  It may take you forever to do it, but it will happen.

You are right of course... AH is missing quite a lot of limitations which were , are and will be present in RL. But come on! Its just a game

Yep, of course.    I don't mind if someone flies this way, since it is after all just a game and their money.  What I do mind is people arguing that such tactics are either preferable (and as such should be enforced via perk points), or are more "realistic," or somehow require more skill than some other method of flying.  It certainly requires more patience, but more skill?  Please.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Saurdaukar]

1.  Again I belive Im being misunderstood.
2.  This topic is not about the ram but since you seem so set on this issue - how is a ram not two-sided?  Two planes collide - where did I state that one survived and the other didnt?  Far as I can tell you lack the information required to make such assumptions about me wondering about the collission system.
3.  A hot merge is what Im going after - if people have a reason to survive the sortie, I imagine we'd see alot less kamakazi behavior.
4.  Again, I am not out to stop rams, they are a necessary part of the game.  I am looking for a way to prevent the "Picket's Charge" mentality of flying that results in rams.
5.  I understand the learning curve is steep for this game - I came to AH from 2 years off from AW and I am still learning.  I am not stating that new drivers should "FLY MY WAY AND THATS THE END OF IT!" Im stating that for those who dont really care about surviving, this system might change that, "suicidal ACM" (Hot merges, kill at all costs, no value placed on returning to base, ram em if you cant shot em, etc (Im quite certain you know exactly what Im talking about, please dont pretend you dont)) might be reduced.
6.  Whining - yes there will always be a contingent of whiners, myself included according to Mr. Ak apparently, who simply get joy out of shooting their mouths off, however some of excuses for whining wold be reduced with this system methinks.

Again let me reiterate that this is only an idea, all Im doing is trying to see what is thought of it... dont take it as a whine because its not and dont assume that Im ranting and raving about the current setup - if I didnt like the game I wouldnt play... Im simply offering suggestions for improvement.  Most of you dont like the idea - thats fine - thats why I posted - wanted to find out but there is no need to go around hanging people because they dont agree with you.  A whole lot of interesting aruments here... whining to prevent whining... yelling about relaxing... etc.  Lets think though these arguments first, please.

Perhaps the error is on my part, and my words have been taken out of context - in this case I offer you multiple smily faces with which I plan to appease the witch hunting population.

[MadBirdCZ]

Leviathan I have nothing else to say

Well maybe this - Im tired, I need some sleep!

<S> cya up there...

[AKDejaVu]

If you are coming in with speed and altitude... you are the only one responsible for what happens at the merge.  The victim of this bounce will be reacting in a totally defensive manner.

The problem with most situations like this is that the attacker feels that he should push the attack because he can see the enemy in his sights.  It is always this mentality that seems to overlook the fact that the enemy is attempting to achieve the same thing.

In a situation where a lower and slower plane is trying to immelman or climb to bring his guns to bear on you... it is much better to climb away forcing him to stall (making it IMPOSSIBLE for him to come around on you).  Some call it a rope-a-dope... and alot of people fall for it.

The collision, in this instance, was entirely the fault of the individual that could have broke off the engagement and still hold a distinct energy advantage.  It is time to head to the TA and work with a trainer on fast closure attack strategies.

AKDejaVu

[Wilbus]

Never said anything about always having advantage, that is more or less impossible in the MA and most other arenas. The way you guys sound attacking with an advantage is proof of lack of courage and skill.

Would you think real life combat pilots agree? No matter what time since the great war, pilots have always favoured advantage, why do you think tactics with attack from the sun, up and under etc etc have been "created"?

Of course someone is always at an disadvantage, if they were smart, and found them selves outnumbered and out "alted", they would bug out, and so many of them did, do this in AH and you WILL be called a run dweeb, cowered, runstand or hunstang etc, whenever the pilots don't fight on YOUR terms and YOU can't get a kill, it's boring fighting and newbie cowerd fighting.

Not saying turnfighting is dweebry, nor saying anything about people flying good turning and yet fast planes. Don't come acuse people of being cowerds though only because you get your bellybutton whiped out of the sky by a pilot who happens to use what he has and then kills you, a good pilot WILL turn an disadvantage to an advantage.